Talk:Heights of presidents and presidential candidates of the United States

Donald Trump and Elon Musk heights

How is it that Elon Musk, listed as 6'2 by Wikipedia and all other sources, is taller than Trump, listed as 6'3 by Wikipedia and most other sources, in all the photos of the two together? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.55.82.40 (talk) 02:26, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Request for comment on the height of Donald Trump

There has been a slow-burning edit war over the true height of Donald Trump. The sources are as follows:

6 ft 2 in

• Selective Service registration card (1964) [1]
• Driver License (2012) [2]

6 ft 3 in

• Dr Harold Bornstein (2016) [3]
• Dr Ronny Jackson (2018) [4]
• Dr Sean Conley (2019) [5]

While other heights have been suggested based on observation and comparison, there are no other heights with reported measurement.

Please indicate which height you support, with reasons. There is also provision for discussion. WWGB (talk) 00:34, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

Support for 6 ft 2 in

• Trump's physical examination summary doesn't declare whether the 6ft 3 figure was measured or self reported. [6]

@WWGB Stop claiming 6ft 2 is unsourced. There are two factual sources. 2003:C2:5721:443:6C46:677B:8E4E:BA4B (talk) 19:51, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

While Trump was 6'2" in 1964 (as was I) he is now 76 (I'm 74). We get shorter with age. He is likely just 6 foot. Jonathan Swiller (talk) 08:26, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

• All of the sources listed are primary, though the secondary sources largely just repeat this information. A Politico article discussing the driver's license considers this more likely to be true than the physicians report. A slate article suggests that 6'3" is being claimed to avoid a label of obesity, and summarises it as "everyone says he is 6 foot 2." The biography of Trump by Forbes also puts him at 6'2". The profile by TIME calls him 6'3" but notes "it irritates him that so many media outlets say 6 foot 2." A Washington Post article prioritises the 6'2" measurement, while a New York Times article prioritises 6'3". I think on balance, 6'2" seems to be where most sources are landing. Even those which use 6'3" seem to acknowledge that they are in the minority. Awoma (talk) 11:42, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
• The Slate article is what convinced me. Donald Trump definitely is not 6'3", because Jeb Bush is 6'3" and Donald Trump is clearly shorter than Jeb Bush. (What I suspect is actually going on is that he's between 6'2" and 6'3", so his doctors are rounding up while the state rounds down on his driver's license. But in the absence of a source with a more specific number, we can't use that.) Loki (talk) 16:52, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

  The state doesn't measure you, you self-report your height and weight and they put down whatever you say. My license had the wrong height on it for years, but I corrected it and they took my word for it. A driver's license is not proof of anything. Claiming he's 6'3" makes Wikipedia look really bad, and undermines its credibility. Wikipedia's credibility is in the toilet, and lies like this are only making it worse. Bugo (talk) 12:50, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

• Secondary sources generally seem to support this number; the only sources that state it without overtly casting doubt on it are primary documents produced by Trump or people working for him. Therefore, we should go with secondary sources and list him under 6'2", perhaps with a footnote noting the discrepancy. --Aquillion (talk) 04:12, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

A doctor is way more than somebody who "works for" the patient, they are highly-trained medical professionals. If Trump was paying his publicist to add an inch, I'd understand skepticism, publicists are paid to distort. But doctors are paid to record clinical data accurately in a clinical fashion, like cold detached psychopaths who don't care about delivering bad news, the results are what they are. Has Trump ever expressed an interest in being a little bit taller? Doubt it. But do the sources taking him and his lying doctor bastards down a peg continue to overtly belittle the man, diminish his people and minimize his standing among America's greatest "giants"? Sure do! InedibleHulk (talk) 04:56, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Has Trump ever expressed an interest in being a little bit taller? Doubt it. Really? You really don't see how Trump has a self-interested motivation to exaggerate his height? Trump has displayed an obsession with his height in the past. (Other sources: [7][8].) His doctor is still, ultimately, someone who works for him; regardless of what they tell him privately, any information they release requires his approval or is at his direction, and regardless of that it is at best a WP:PRIMARY source. Therefore, we must rely on secondary sources to interpret and analyze what they say. To be clear, I would strenuously oppose using direct numbers from a physician under any circumstances (they are not properly published for WP:V purposes and never meet our criteria for a WP:RS); and anything published or released by the organization someone runs (including a president's administration) has to be considered WP:ABOUTSELF at best, even if they state it comes from a physician. I don't follow your "physicians are cold detached psychopaths" logic at all - that is not what makes someone an WP:RS; what makes someone an RS is that they are WP:INDEPENDENT and published in a venue with editorial controls and a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. A statement by a doctor (not independent) published by a politician's administration (no fact-checking or accuracy, no editorial controls) is the exact opposite of this. Finally, I feel like you're just barking up the wrong tree in general - numerous secondary sources have reported Trump's height as 6'2" or even 6'1". If it is so crystal-clear that they are wrong, surely you can find other secondary sources directly disputing them? Hammering a primary source (especially when it involves someone like Trump, who has both a clear self-interested motivation to exaggerate his height and a history of misinformation) seems baffling. You really cannot find any secondary sources at all to back up the figures he claims? --Aquillion (talk) 11:07, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

A primary source isn't good for citing, by itself, but can be useful in deciding which secondary sources to use. These three convince me we should use one calling him 6'3". "Cold detached" means independent, "psychopath" means unconcerned with others' feelings on practical matters. Your WaPo guy had some fine opinions on Trump, but no statements from him indicating a wish to be taller. Seems more conceited and proud to actually be taller than those he teases. Anyway, I'm gradually dropping out of political crap, so will pass on addressing your other points, but legit appreciate you making them. *InedibleHulk (talk) 21:24, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Something that is being overlooked is that he wears elevator shoes with thick soles. They have to be at LEAST 3" thick, if not 4". You can easily see that he wears lifts when he walks. That's also why he leans forward when he's standing. He's visibly shorter than a 6'1" Barack Obama, and that's with the stilt shoes on. There's no way he's over 5'11" tops if you take the elevator shoes into consideration. But 6'3"? That's plain old false information, and it undermines the mission of Wikipedia. And if he weighs 215 pounds, then I'm president of Latvia. He weighs 300 at the bare minimum. 6'3" 215 pound guys do NOT look like him. They're taller and they aren't grossly obese. Bugo (talk) 13:00, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Yup. Trump 6’3”??? LMAO - in his dreams. 🤣 2601:1C0:5680:1720:D3F:E99A:E24C:BC5B (talk) 00:12, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

• [12 ] Trump doesn't look 6'2 with Shaq here. 216.87.224.250 (talk) 14:00, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
• Support - while there is no reason to believe that the SS registration or his driver's license are inaccurate, there *is* at least some reason to doubt that his handpicked physicians would seek to flatter him. Therefore they are slightly *less* reliable sources and should be set aside in favor of other official measurements. 6' 2" takes it. Ganesha811 (talk) 19:35, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

  "(W)hile there is no reason to believe that the SS registration or his driver's license are inaccurate"

  I measured myself incorrectly several years ago, and I thought I was 6'4", and that's what my license said for years. The doctor measured me, and I'm actually a little over 6'2". I told the lady at the tag agency my actual height, and she put it on the license without questioning me. There is plenty of reason to believe that anybody's license could be wrong, unless certain states break out the tape measure and make you take your shoes off and measure you at the tag agency. Height and weight on driver's licenses are not reliable at all. I am 74" tall and weigh just under 250 pounds, and I look positively svelte compared to him. He's a liar who is not to be believed. Bugo (talk) 13:06, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Support for 6 ft 3 in

• Aye Three sources agree, that's more than two that don't. The three are also doctors, and newer. But both heights are probably factual, posture-dependent. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:09, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
• 6ft3in w/ efn - There seems to be pretty significant doubt among reliable sources as to the "official" number (e.g. Macleans, Time, Politico). Frankly, height is a little bit subjective, given that it can change and that things like posture and footwear come into play. Bottom line is, we probably shouldn't become a forum for the girth-er movement. There a couple limited cases where we can give some deference to the subjects of articles and this might be one of them. It would probably be right to list the number as 6'3", then simply put in an efn saying "Reliable sources place Trump's height at anywhere from 6'1" to 6'3". All of this said, the guy clearly isn't 6'3". NickCT (talk) 15:56, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

I enjoyed the "girth-er movement" comment. Very droll. I'd also be happy with this outcome. Awoma (talk) 16:50, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

Don't forget that he wears shoes with soles as thick as a filet mignon. He's visibly shorter than the 6'1" Barack Obama, even wearing the elevator shoes. He could be as short as 5'10" in real life. Bugo (talk) 13:08, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Discussion

When he descends ramps, he gets shorter, and not just because his feet are lower. There's a video, somewhat infamous, can't paste a link though. Not nearly as bad for his approval rating as the three-foot-plus Bob Dole Plunge was for Bob Dole, but still not his tallest moment. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:39, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

Awoma, in a physical examination, the examinee offers up experiential data, like medical history or symptoms, but the examiner measures what's physically present in the room. That's the whole point of going to someone to get checked, rather than doing it alone in the mirror. And can you elaborate on how sources saying 6'3" "seem to acknowledge" they're in the minority? InedibleHulk (talk) 18:39, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

For example, TIME says 6'3" and then immediately notes that many sources say 6'2" Awoma (talk) 20:17, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

Even a minority can still contain "many". There are many Muslim veterinarians, for instance (about 500 in America alone, per top Google result). Got anything stronger, suggestion-wise? InedibleHulk (talk) 20:30, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

This is why I said "seem to." Awoma (talk) 08:12, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

You were clear, I understood. But neither side seems to me to admit the other side is larger (or has the better case) in this height "debate", so just asking if you could help me see it from your perspective, maybe highlight something I'd skimmed over.

It's all good, though, I fingerquote "debate", because it's one of those differences in interpretation that simply has no potential for a decisive conclusion. Like arguing whether the chicken or the egg came first or whether the guy saying "Laurel" repeatedly somehow isn't; I think we can at least agree Trump is deceptively tall (or deceptively short, as some reasonably prefer). I personally could/couldn't care less if Trump's ranked above or below whoever here, since he's still losing to Lincoln, I just went with my gut, seems like three recent doctors couldn't all be incompetent at basic tasks or so easily corrupted for such a petty reason.

Contrary to popular belief, Trump is not so charismatic as to taint every doctor, judge, journalist, police officer or whatever certified oathtaker he touches. No president ever has been able to sway the truly objective observers and advisors around him, though height does help intimidate in face-to-face meetings. Probably why Lincoln got done what he did, and people still view him as "awesome" for it. Speaking of awesome ideas for 2024, is there a literally bigger Republican that you know of than Glenn Jacobs? What about a Democrat who could bully Dwayne Johnson? Think about it, American people, the seeds are already well-planted (and apparently growing). All you need to do is sit back and let the pros work themselves into a shoot, brother! InedibleHulk (talk) 01:02, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

I use "brother" in a gender-neutral way, by the way, I find it sounds wrong on few levels to call a woman "sister", especially when working together. I don't know if Awoma is a woman, and I'm not asking. Just saying, generally and endearingly, nothing racial intended either, everyone's a brother in Hulkspeak. InedibleHulk (talk) 01:20, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

No, I feel policy is crystal-clear here. We go with what the highest-quality, published, independent secondary sources say. At least the ones produced so far are unanimous in placing his height at 6'2" or below and casting doubt on the official figures released by his administration. This isn't a complex policy question at all - independent secondary sources will always trump figures from primary sources, when they contradict, because only secondary sources can provide the analysis and interpretation necessary to determine which primary sources are reliable. You need to produce secondary sources if you want the 6'3" figure to be anything but a footnote. --Aquillion (talk) 11:13, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

If this article is called "heights of presidents" rather the "heights of future presidents" should we not place more weight on contemporaneous sources, rather than a height reported more than 50 years before he became president? WWGB (talk) 03:11, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

No, We Should! InedibleHulk (talk) 04:33, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

All of the secondary sources I mentioned in my comment are indeed contemporaneous. We shouldn't be trying to weigh up primary sources ourselves at all. Awoma (talk) 10:24, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

• As a physician who conducts physical exams on adults, I think it's worth noting that height is not routinely measured except when it's important - there are inadequate prior records AND the patient expresses uncertainty, there are significant discrepancies in prior measurements, OR it is medically indicated (BMI-based treatment, concerns about loss of stature e.g. vertebral compression, etc). Height might be a required field so it might be included as part of the report, but a top-notch medical record would indicate when the measurement was freshly taken and by what method. It's pretty clear that people, especially men, tend to overestimate height when self-reported, e.g. this older but very pertinent report of military personnel with a mini-review of the literature that concludes in the Discussion section (top of page 778), "Magnitude of Overreporting - On the average, over the entire stature range, men overreport their stature by approximately 2.5 cm (1 in.); women overreport by approximately 1 cm (3/8 in.)." Halfway down the same page: "Effect of age - Men age 45 to 54 may be expected to overreport their stature by approximately 0.25 cm (1/8 in.), men 55 to 64 by 0.6 cm (1/4 in.), and men 65 to 74 by 1.25 cm (1/2 in.) in addition to the overreporting otherwise expected." So, over-reporting of stature tended to increase with age. — soupvector (talk) 03:41, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

This article has nothing left to do with encyclopedia work, now Trump is listed as 6ft 1 with three different sources all speaking for 6ft 3. The table is completely crooked and I'm getting banned by a bungler @331dot thanks @WWGB.2A0A:A547:3232:0:9C54:7E8C:809D:190D (talk) 12:31, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Was Truman 5ft 9, Nixon 5ft 11.5, Kennedy 6ft 1, Roosevelt 6ft 2 or Johnson 6ft 3.5? – non of them! It's ridiculous to downgrade Trump but keep the other presidents at their billed height.2A0A:A547:22C3:0:F9F1:DFB:EAD8:D1A1 (talk) 17:14, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

Donald Trump has consistently engaged in what common folk call "lies" - there is a whole Wikipedia page about it, including sections which detail scenarios in which he engaged those around him to lie for him. We are, as always, trusting official reports. However, in such a case where the officials who are doing the reporting A. are susceptible to influence - for example, the WH medical record released was "with the consent of Donald Trump", meaning presumably if there was information he felt should not be publicized, it would not have been released without removal or adjustment - and B. have been known to be influenced and repeatedly pressured, the numbers and claims presented warrant skepticism. Donald Trump's personal doctor claimed that Trump wrote his own health endorsement; there is evidence for self-reporting dubiously with regards to health. The DMV does not measure your height before giving you your card. Donald Trump is not 6' 3", nor 6' 2" - possibly or probably not even 6' 1". He is self-evidently shorter than Justin Trudeau and Jeb Bush. If the White House put out an official document claiming that Joe Biden was 5'9, what would this article reflect? It's as far from the truth. The article ought to reflect this - it may warrant its own section, if there can't be a consensus on how to proceed. HabrosNitwit (talk) 15:05, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Ross Perot

A user has just added Ross Perot to the comparative table. I don‘t have any problem with this but for the sake of consistency shouldn‘t Strom Thurmond be included for 1948 and George Wallace for 1968? Unlike Perot they actually won votes in the Electoral College. - Millionsandbillions (talk) 21:11, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

References