Talk:Frankie Muniz

GA Failure

• Poor introduction
• No Fair Use Rationale on the images
• Various unsourced statements
• References linked before grammatical notes, should be after

Needs work, Highway ^{Rainbow Sneakers} 20:00, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Here's an idea Einstein, fix it yourself! You seem to have an issue with it like nobody else.

You missed:

• Usual unsourced ethnic background though inclusion in categories despite lack of evidence.

62.25.106.209 16:19, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Nolan quote

"Christopher Nolan, the director of Batman Begins, and its sequel The Dark Knight, has stated that he would cast Muniz as the role of Robin if he had to. However, Nolan has stated that as long as he is directing the franchise, Robin will not be cast."

This quote makes no sense to me.Andrew zot 22:37, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Wood-Ridgewood

I'm not sure if anyone noticed, but the article gives his birthplace as both Wood-Ridge and Ridgewood. Anyone? Cao Wei 02:53, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Frankie was actually born in Wood-Ridge...Michaela92399 02:06, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Muniz in Tears for Fears video?

Is Frankie Muniz in the video "Everybody Wants to Rule the World" by Tears for Fears? There's a kid in it who looks exactly like him, but I'm not sure when this video was made? He may have been too young at the time. Davez621 18:40, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Frankie wasn't even BORN when the song(and accompanying video) came out...IN 1984!...Michaela92399 02:07, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Muñiz

Does he really use the tilde? It doesn't seem to show up in any of the shows or movies that I've seen. RickK 04:29, 6 Nov 2003 (UTC)

• I'm something of a fan, and no he never uses the tilde. Rhymeless 07:07, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)

He does not have a middle name. There is no James. Has been removed. Source: http://www.frankie-muniz.info/multimedia/aollivedl.html

Then should the tildes and acute accents be removed from his name wherever they appear in the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sofa jazz man (talk • contribs) 23:49, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Former actor...current racing driver?

IMDB have today reported that Muniz has given up acting in order to concentrate on a professional racing career in the Champ Car Atlantic Series. -- Delsource (talk) 12:12, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Arrested Development guest appearance

He made a memorable in Arrested Development. I'll add it in here.

Frankie Muniz Heart Attack?

On the article, there is a section referring to Frankie Muniz recently having a heart attack. I cannot find any news sources mentioning Frankie Muniz post July 22nd, 2007, and surely this would have seen a mention in the new. It should be removed from the main page immediately unless a third-party source can be linked to right away. Allthemodrnthgs 20:51, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

It NEVER happened!...all those tabloids that are geared towards those Jonas Brothers fans are now assaulting Frankie's health in order to grab more sales from the newsstands!...I don't believe that even Harvey Levin's TMZ.com would stoop THAT low as to believe such nonsense!...Baldwin91006 17:19, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Death?????

did he actually get in an accident? can this be verafied? i've searched google, google news and foxnews and can't find anything. Orangefizzlebiz 04:49, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

No, he's STILL alive!...Baldwin91006 17:17, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Middle name

Seems like someone's determined to retain "James" as Frankie's middle name, even though he NEVER had one!;please remove all references to a middle name from the page at once...thanks,Baldwin91006 17:21, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Nop matter how many timews all of us have deleted his middle naem saying he DOESN'T have one, there's an idiot who keeps putting it back in...please straighten it out once and for all:remove Frankie's middle name!...Baldwin91006 17:52, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

For the eighth time, there's a person who keeps insisting that he HAS a middle name and keeps restoring it...PLEASE STOP!...Baldwin91006 (talk) 03:14, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

For the ninth TIME, please stop re-inserting a "middle name" in this article!...HE NEVER HAD ONE AT ALL!...Michaela92399 (talk) 03:46, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

born in 1997 ??

This article currently says born in 1997. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.184.137.243 (talk) 15:07, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

His Religion

Does Anyone knows what is his religion ??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.94.38.150 (talk) 11:31, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Considering his ancestry [Irish/Italian and "Puerto Rican"] hes probably Catholic, but i have no sources to back it up.

Bot report : Found duplicate references !

In the last revision I edited, I found duplicate named references, i.e. references sharing the same name, but not having the same content. Please check them, as I am not able to fix them automatically :)

• "about" :
  • {{cite web | title=About.com | work=Transitioning to adult roles with Jason Riner | url=http://actionadventure.about.com/cs/weeklystories/a/aa031104_2.htm | accessmonthday=March 23 | accessyear=2006}}
  • {{cite web | title=About.com | work=Back as Agent Cody Banks | url=http://actionadventure.about.com/cs/weeklystories/a/aa031104.htm | accessmonthday=March 23 | accessyear=2006}}

DumZiBoT (talk) 19:28, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Titus

Does anyone know the proper link to the Titus-article? It now refers back to the roman emperor instead of a movie/show. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Robin.lemstra (talk • contribs) 12:24, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Birth date

I have trouble believing he was born in 1985, and was 15 when Malcolm in the Middle began to air, he is supposed to be around 12 or 11 at the beggining of the show, looks like he's about 9 in my opinion and was supposedly 15... Also, in My dog Skip, (form 2000 as well as Malcolm in the middle), he looks like he's age 8, when acording to when he was born, he was really 15.

Either he has some sort of Age retardation where he looks 10 years younger than he really is, someone messed with the article, or The movies and films he was in where filmed 4 years before they debuted. There is no source for this birthdate, and I don't believe it one bit.Altenhofen 05:52, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

LOL yeah wtf. Someone needs to fix that up. Kausill (Talk) (Contribs) 12:16, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

What the hell? According to imdb.com his birthdate is 1985. LOL. He looks nine. Kausill (Talk) (Contribs) 12:19, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

age

ummmmm,are you sure he is 23? Because that would make him 15 when he played in My Dog Skip. 173.55.170.16 (talk) 23:27, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

That is what I said, and in My Dog Skip, he looks like he's 7. Altenhofen 18:20, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Playstation Underground

As I recall he did a video for the playstation underground demo discs for E3. I don't remember much of it but if anyone could edit it in to the article in an orderly manner then that would be great.--166.164.78.94 (talk) 21:29, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Found it on a youtube reference about the year 2000 E3, put it, it's now in the filmography, wasn't sure were to reference for that, sorry anyway here's the reference, here's the link

Resolved

Career as a drummer

So let me start by saying that I'm not even sure if this is the right place to ask this question, and if it's not, I apologize for the mistake. I and several others before me added that he's now a drummer for a band called You Hang Up and it was removed because the band is non-notable, which is true. My question is does notability refer to the subject of the article or to everything in the article? It just would seem that because he's a notable person, that his career change to a drummer is by extension notable, whether the band he's currently drumming for is notable or not. I'd just like some clarification. Again, sorry if this isn't the right place for that.Willcrys 84 (talk) 03:00, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Notability refers to anything that is added, item by item. That Muniz joined a non-notable band is a reflection on the band's notability, not Muniz's. It was removed previously because the addition wasn't sourced, but come on. It's very hard to know how many people, actors, etc., play in what amounts to a garage band that has gone nowhere. It doesn't make it notable on its own legs. Now, if the band releases an album, that might be different. There's nothing to support saying it is an actual career change instead of a hobby. Wildhartlivie (talk) 13:09, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

It wasn't unsourced (http://www.popeater.com/2010/02/24/frankie-muniz-you-hang-up-interview/). In that interview he actually says that he considers it a job. Not wanting to mention his current band is understandable, I don't get why there shouldn't be any mention of drumming at all, when he has said himself that he's pursuing it professionally.Willcrys 84 (talk) 15:57, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

No, it wasn't always sourced, see here and here. You added popeater.com, a site that isn't considered a reliable source, which renders it not sourced. Like I said, once the band does something notable, maybe then. Lot's of people join bands and go nowhere with it. Wildhartlivie (talk) 16:43, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Is it non-reliable even though it's showing an interview of him? SamEV (talk) 16:59, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes it is. Non-reliable basically means that it is not considered a legitimate source. That interview could (not saying it IS) be faked, or cobbed from a legitimate source. Once in a while, an unreliable source may have legitimate content, but not consistently. Wildhartlivie (talk) 17:20, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

That's what I thought. Thank you. SamEV (talk) 17:30, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I never meant to imply that it was always sourced, just that it was sourced when I posted it. I don't understand why popeater is considered non-reliable here. It's used as a source on a fair amount of other articles and it's published by AOL. So does the fact that it's a gossip site definitively preclude it from being a reliable source, even though most of the content is consistently verifiable? Willcrys 84 (talk) 21:49, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

"Constantly verifiable" says that it can be checked against the original source, which is what should be used. I explained what makes something reliable or not reliable. As for being used on other pages, there's a basic tenet here: Other stuff exists. Just because it's slipped in on some articles doesn't lend it credibility. Wildhartlivie (talk) 22:04, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Now I'm just completely confused. So nothing can be used as a source unless some other non-Wikipedia entity first uses it as a source?Willcrys 84 (talk) 22:51, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

No, but you said the content was consistently verifiable. Verifiable means it can be compared to the source of the article/statement/news story to verify, or check, the facts. If popeater is verifiable, that would mean they are copying a story from another place. Wildhartlivie (talk) 23:19, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

I guess me and Wikipedia have different definitions of verifiable. I'd always thought that if something was verifiable, then it could be proven to be true. I think I get it now. Thanks a lot.Willcrys 84 (talk) 23:54, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Disrespect

Is it just me or a lot of lines are disrespecting him ? I'm referring to his racing career, in particular. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.104.108.6 (talk) 07:35, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

How do we report spammers? People are defiling this page with false info/profanity. The IP 74.5.31.218 seems to be part of it. 99.52.103.169 (talk) 05:37, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Changed quote from reference #2, previously read "one of Hollywood's most bangable teens." Correct reference is "one of Hollywood's most bankable teens." — Preceding unsigned comment added by S&J Wstch (talk • contribs) 20:15, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Stuck On You (film)

The third paragraph under the "Career" section states, "In 2003, he made a cameo appearance as Cher's underage boyfriend in Stuck on You." The Filmography chart, however, says his role was "Cher Son". Can someone please verify or disprove his cameo appearance/role in this film? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Inheritor10 (talk • contribs) 19:17, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Ancestors

The article says that his ancestors come from the region of Asturias, Spain and cites as a reference an Answers webpage that uses this same wikipedia page as primary source of information.

I think it should be deleted or changed, but I have not find any reference online that does not use WikiPedia as the source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.223.96.49 (talk) 09:02, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Transient ischemic attack/s

I think that referring to a transient ischemic attack as a "mini-stroke" is too cutesy. Just leave the TIA linked; if a reader is interested in looking up what it means, they can do so. Otherwise, it sounds like a kid's news item from the Weekly Reader >_< .

More to the point, mention a cause of the TIA. (Though frequently a direct cause isn't found, it could be due to a condition like atrial fibrillation.) Has he had any more, were there any long-term effects from the episode, does he now take medication to prevent more TIAs, does the condition interfere with race car driving, that kind of thing. Thank you, Wordreader (talk) 06:05, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 4 external links on Frankie Muniz. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/20060306033451/http://actionadventure.about.com:80/cs/weeklystories/a/aa031104.htm to http://actionadventure.about.com/cs/weeklystories/a/aa031104.htm
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/20070824100227/http://www.nationalledger.com:80/artman/publish/article_27264274.shtml to http://www.nationalledger.com/artman/publish/article_27264274.shtml
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/20060217130728/http://people.aol.com:80/people/articles/0,19736,1083857,00.html to http://people.aol.com/people/articles/0,19736,1083857,00.html
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/20070930210950/http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr/film/brief_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1002465421 to http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr/film/brief_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1002465421

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers. —^{cyberbot II}_{Talk to my owner:Online} 06:56, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Frankie Muniz. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131105192032/http://24hourhiphop.com/next-in-line/lil-brianna/ to http://24hourhiphop.com/next-in-line/lil-brianna/
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120409030608/http://www.ydr.com/ci_20336663/malcolm-star-muniz-joins-york-county-band-kingsfoil?source=most_viewed to http://www.ydr.com/ci_20336663/malcolm-star-muniz-joins-york-county-band-kingsfoil?source=most_viewed

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 13:57, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• Frankie Muniz .jpg

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. Community Tech bot (talk) 22:51, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

No middle name

There have been repeated attempts to add an unsourced middle name to the article. Per Muniz, he does not have a middle name. Schazjmd (talk) 16:13, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

MOS:ROLEBIO

Willform and 117.20.68.68 please do not add ...and stock car racing driver. to the opening sentence. This does not comply with the policy which states that The lead sentence should describe the person as they are commonly described in reliable sources. - "Ghost of Dan Gurney" ^{(work / talk)} 19:22, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

I think it's gonna be due for a reevaluation based on how the 2023 season goes. His Twitter is almost exclusively racing content, including the bio. Spagooder (talk) 23:32, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

@Tollens: would you like to elaborate on why we should go against MOS:ROLEBIO, or can you show that there is as much WP:WEIGHT in reliable sources to refer to this subject as a racing driver as there is for his (well-established) acting career? ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  17:03, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

I'm sorry - didn't know there was a talk page discussion here (in retrospect should've checked) and only saw the reversion due to lack of sources - had I known I would've come here first. Giving the article a more thorough read, I agree that his racing career is already given the appropriate weight by talking about it later in the second paragraph. Apologies for the hasty reversion. Tollens (talk) 21:32, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

All good. Thanks for the reply. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  22:19, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

Permission

Would it be fine if I added "professional racing driver" to his biography? Thermicknight7 (talk) 08:47, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

No, please read the above section detailing why this is inappropriate. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  13:41, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

inclusion of race car driver in lead sentence

i am confused about the demand to eliminate the inclusion of "race car driver" from the lead sentence. when we follow the sources, the VAST majority of modern coverage of Muniz include the race car driving.

i scrolled through hundreds of search results for Muniz from Google news and the article below is the only one of those many results in coverage from the past year that do NOT include "race car driver" in their descriptions, most have it as part of the headline.

https://www.cbr.com/bryan-cranston-debunks-malcolm-in-the-middle-revival-claim/ 67.220.13.96 (talk) 14:24, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Part-Time in Xfinity Series

I think it's finally time to add "stock car racing driver" to the heading, as he is gonna drive in the Xfinity Series. There are no more excuses to remove it if it is edited into the article. Permission? FoxX 07 (talk) 00:26, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

"Consensus on the talk page"

I'm getting tired of other editors telling me to get consensus on the talk page when literally nobody is talking on said talk page. The reasons of why we can't add an additional six words are actually unreasonable and flat out stupid. The majority of sources on Frankie Muniz state SEVERAL times that he is a "racecar driver", and not to mention that Muniz himself can also be counted as a source. There's no reason to keep removing the additional terminology from the first sentence. You might as well start USING THE TALK PAGE if you have a problem with it. FoxX 07 (talk) 01:24, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Yes there is a reason. The reason, as explained above (on the talk page you claim isn't being used), is MOS:ROLEBIO and the relevant text is "However, avoid overloading the lead paragraph with various and sundry roles; instead, emphasize what made the person notable. Incidental and non-noteworthy roles (i.e. activities that are not integral to the person's notability) should usually not be mentioned in the lead paragraph.[b]". ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  02:40, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

It's not incidental, it's his career now. 173.66.236.53 (talk) 13:36, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Is OJ Simpson notable for being an actor? His page seems to indicate as such. 173.66.236.53 (talk) 18:41, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

It's literally not incidental. It's his career, he isn't acting that often anymore. In fact, he's racing more often than acting. FoxX 07 (talk) 02:09, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Assertions that "it's not incidental" to his notability are an assumption that still doesn't meet WP:CRYSTAL. His notability as an actor is how he's able to raise the funds needed to be a racing driver. I remain unconvinced that in 20 years, reliable sources that aren't subject specific will be writing about "Frankie Muniz the racing driver" with nearly the WEIGHT as they would about "Frankie Muniz the actor", to the extent that a mention in the opening sentence is warranted. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  18:49, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

This is the most clownish response I've ever seen. FoxX 07 (talk) 21:26, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Personal attacks won't get you anywhere except blocked. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  02:40, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

This response has no basis in anything. We know what the reliable sources say *now.* You're gatekeeping based on some imagined future. 173.66.236.53 (talk) 01:11, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

So...full disclosure, I'm mostly retired now and have been for a while. But I feel compelled to give my two cents here. Frankie himself is on record saying he doesn't want to be thought of as an "actor/racing driver" but simply a racing driver. It's also undeniable that he is, at this stage in his life, doing a lot more racing than he is acting, which means many people searching his name in 2024 are likely doing so to learn more about his driving career rather than his acting career. While I don't want to entirely discredit some of the points GhostOfDanGurney is making, it does seem a bit silly to me that we appear to be so staunchly against acknowledging this in the opening sentence. He is currently competing in the second-highest level of stock car racing in the world. Of course, he's still known as an actor and always will be. But in my opinion, anyone competing in that series, regardless of their past profession or how they got there, should unequivocally be considered a professional racing driver. If he flames out and this is simply a footnote in his life years from now, then we can cross that bridge when we get there and strictly refer to him as an actor. But right now, in 2024, I fail to see the harm in including both professions. --Bcschneider53 (talk) 16:49, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

@Bcschneider53: The harm in my opinion comes from implying that Muniz is as successful or as prominent (aka notable) as a racing driver as he is/was as an actor. Such an implication is very premature. As I said below in another reply, Muniz does not meet anything listed in WP:NMOTORSPORT and reliable sources are still telling us that he's "the Malcom in the Middle guy". ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  23:15, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Is OJ Simpson a football player or an actor? 173.66.236.53 (talk) 00:34, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

There is a substantial amount of coverage on Muniz's racing career from reliable secondary sources. A few quick examples include CBS Sports, Sporting News, and People, Forbes. As he's gained notability as a driver in his own right, I would say it deserves a mention in the introductory sentence. ~Peter Dzubay (talk) 06:08, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

@Peter Dzubay: But Muniz does not at all meet WP:NMOTORSPORT and Forbes Contributors are unreliable per WP:FORBESCON. The People article linked to describes Muniz in it's own words as "The "Malcolm in the Middle" star is taking the next step in his racing career, joining NASCAR's second-tier Xfinity Series this season" (bolding mine). CBS Sports and Sporting News are both subject-specific websites, and even then, they both prominently state that Muniz is the "'Malcolm in the Middle' star".

Muniz is not on the entry list for the next race in the 2024 NASCAR Xfinity Series, the series he is currently trying to raise funds (aka obtain sponsorship) to race in, so that "next step" is not to be a full-season driver.

There is literally nothing in NMOTORSPORT to suggest that Muniz has gained independent notability as a racing driver. His notability is still purely as an actor. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  23:10, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

@GhostOfDanGurney:The bullet points listed in WP:NMOTORSPORT follow the sentence: "Significant coverage is likely to exist for motorsport figures if they..." because notability revolves around substantial coverage, not the performance of the athletes themselves. While it is true that Muniz' career as a driver has yet to meet a lot of what typically garners widespread recognition for athletes, he has yielded significant coverage from reliable secondary sources specifically about his career as a stock car driver. The fact that much of of his fame is rooted in acting does not make the widespread media coverage of his driving any less significant or legitimate. ~Peter Dzubay (talk) 07:09, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

@Peter Dzubay: But it's not a question of existing, it's a question of WP:WEIGHT. There is simply nowhere near the WEIGHT (or "widespread media coverage" as you say) as there is regarding his acting career. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  13:51, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

This is just blatantly false. All it takes is a simple Google search of his name to prove this wrong. 173.66.236.53 (talk) 02:41, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

Muniz's career as an actor far outweighs his self-funded competition at a B-Level in the niche sport of auto racing. And I say that as someone passionate about auto racing. I encourage others to visit the page of Paul Newman. The weight given Newman's auto racing career in relation to his acting career acts a good guideline for editors to follow.

@GhostOfDanGurney is on point with his concerns. RegalZ8790 (talk) 01:05, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

@RegalZ8790: Just to be clear, do you mean the page that states in the opening sentence: "Paul Leonard Newman (January 26, 1925 – September 26, 2008) was an American actor, film director, racing driver, philanthropist, and entrepreneur"? The entire point of this discussion is over the inclusion of the bolded phrase in Muniz's article. Again, if Muniz has been racing in some capacity for the better part of two decades, and if Newman's lead sentence also acknowledges his career as a driver, I just don't understand such staunch opposition in this case. --Bcschneider53 (talk) 02:20, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

@Bcschneider53, you are correct, I misidentified the focus of the discussion. I do not think listing "racing driver" in the lead is problematic. What I see as problematic is that this supposedly "vital" article devotes such extensive coverage to Muniz's hobby. RegalZ8790 (talk) 03:02, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

I agree that coverage should be trimmed down and put the amount of it down to WP:RECENTISM bias, much the same as I find the inclusion in the opening sentence. I think a better WP:OTHERSTUFF example than Newman or Simpson would be Michael Jordan; It's indisputable that he is world famous for his basketball career and that he's also become a notable and successful businessman. But his opening sentence excludes both his acting career and his baseball career, which are both clearly incidental to his notability, despite in the former case having a starring role in a fairly well-known movie, Space Jam. Jordan's baseball career on the otherhand, similar to Muniz's racing career, never advanced beyond a few appearances at a second-tier-at-best level and the majority of the coverage is based on the novelty of "star at one thing tries other thing"; a perfect mirror of Muniz.

My arguments, based on the policy of WP:WEIGHT, works whether we are talking about the opening sentence (also backed by MOS:ROLEBIO), or the overall coverage of the article. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  20:01, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Jordan played baseball for just a little over a year before he returned to basketball. Muniz has been racing in some capacity since 2004 and spent multiple years pursuing open-wheel and stock car racing careers. With all due respect, I'm not sure that's a great comparison here. --Bcschneider53 (talk) 17:02, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Muniz spent four years from 2006-2009 in junior formula racing, and frankly did very poorly. From 2021-2023 he competed in stock car racing at levels that would be comparable to Single-A to High-A, where he again had no remarkable results. He has since done a single race in 2024 at NASCAR's "Triple A" level. All other appearances were as a "celebrity guest." Jordan's basketball career, while shorter, was both more successful and garnered more media interest, and yet no one is arguing to insert "baseball player" into that opening sentence. Like RegalZ8790 said, this is a self-funded hobby for him, not what made him famous and notable. That he has as much attention as he does is a testament to his continued fame off of Malcom in the Middle, and this is corroborated by recent reliable sources. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  17:48, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

So where do we stand? I see one user gatekeeping inclusion with several in favor. 173.66.236.53 (talk) 00:10, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

It is BENEFICIAL to anyone and everyone coming across this article to recognize Muniz as a racing driver. We should add it. The problem is that this one user keeps interfering with everybody trying to add valuable information to the heading. FoxX 07 (talk) 00:53, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

I've made policy based arguments as to why I feel that it isn't beneficial and I am not satisfied that there is any satisfactory response based on policy. This isn't gatekeeping, it's called having a discussion.

If you no longer want to continue to discuss (which I believe is true based on not replying to my last comment, personally attacking me again, and then editing the page anyway), make a WP:RfC so that others can make policy-based arguments in your stead. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  23:00, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Your personal opinion shouldn't deter anyone from editing an article that YOU didn't write. Keeping people from editing in information that is widely known, factual, and knowledgeable is considered gatekeeping, not a discussion. You aren't discussing anything with anybody, you're trying to deter people from editing in this information because of your own opinion. FoxX 07 (talk) 23:30, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

What is widely known is that Muniz's wealth and fame accrued through his acting career have enabled him to pursue a hobby and childhood dream. He is not a professional racing driver; he is a well-liked wealthy amateur. I have no problem with him being called an "amateur racing driver" in the latter paragraph of the lead. However, in no way do I see his activities as behooving us to include "racing driver" in his very opening sentence. He is an actor.

This debate has not led to a new consensus, and I doubt one will form shortly. I wonder if we can all revisit this later. If Muniz participates in a significant number of Truck-or-higher level races during the 2024 season, then we should revisit this discussion. RegalZ8790 (talk) 02:34, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

"What is widely known is that Muniz's wealth and fame accrued through his acting career have enabled him to pursue a hobby and childhood dream." This is irrelevant. Was Ronald Reagan pursuing a hobby or did he start a second career?

"He is not a professional racing driver; he is a well-liked wealthy amateur." This is factually inaccurate. 173.66.236.53 (talk) 15:56, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

So you're saying he is an "amateur racing driver" but not a "racing driver"...great way to contradict your own sentence. FoxX 07 (talk) 23:24, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Put "race car driver" in the lead paragraph.

The intro talks more about that than his acting career. —theMainLogan (t•c) 15:20, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

It shouldn't, and we can blame WP:RECENTISM for it doing so. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  18:16, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

Can we add race car driver to his lead now?

Muniz is doing full-time in the truck series next year and also He said multiple times that he is a race car driver now...so i think its appropite to add race car driver to his lead now. MysticCipher87(alt-account) (talk) 17:17, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose - We'd still be basing the opening sentence of this BLP around recent and/or future events, in the face of historic sources which traditionally describe Muniz as an actor. I understand the urge to add this, especially after today's announcement, but like we saw with Hailie Deegan, having a contract for a full season doesn't guarantee that they'll run the full season. Per WP:RECENTISM, we should be writing with "an aim toward a long-term, historical view"; I'm still not convinced that in 20 years, the general public will remember Muniz as a racing driver to any level near what they would as an actor. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  18:30, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

You're being disruptive at this point. PAVA11 (talk) 15:13, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes. Only one user seems bent on opposing. PAVA11 (talk) 15:16, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Please feel free to provide policy-based reasons for your position, rather than making vague comments about user conduct without evidence and achieve consensus that way. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  15:34, 26 October 2024 (UTC)