Talk:Kresy

Old talk

Sorry, I confused censuses of provinces with censuses of cities. Mikkalai 21:19, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Wasn't this term also used in some form during the times of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 20:21, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

And what about "Kresy Zachodnie"? Radomil talk 21:49, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I think this should be moved to Kresy Wschodnie and Kresy should be a disambig, now that we have the Kresy Zachodnie article as well.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 16:44, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Kresy → Eastern Borderlands – I believe this should be moved to Eastern Borderlands as per the naming conventions (use English). --Tweenk 23:32, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Survey

Add "# Support" or "# Oppose" on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~. Please remember that this survey is not a vote, and please provide an explanation for your recommendation.

Survey - in support of the move

Survey - in opposition to the move

1. oppose, as the proposal stands. While it may be an accurate english translation, the nominated target is neither unambiguous or all that informative. Quite likely, this historical region is not well-enough known (in english) for 'Eastern Borderlands' (on its own, at least) to be synonymous with it. The few english-language sources I've reviewed are quite comfortable calling this Kresy or Kresy Wschodnie. If anything, I think the option put forward by Piotrus above —move this article instead to Kresy Wschodnie and make Kresy a dab page— makes reasonable sense.--cjllw ʘ TALK 13:05, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved. --Stemonitis 06:32, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Russian Rule

I have changed "In August 1939 the Eastern borderlands unlike the rest of Poland were under Russian rule and not German." to "In late September 1939 the Eastern borderlands unlike the rest of Poland were under Russian rule and not German." as in August 1939 Poland was still at peace. Please change back but put reason if I have misunderstood.

Further should it not say Soviet rather than Russian? Plan to change later in week unless someone comments why Russia is correct. --Jniech

Kresy defined in the intro

I edited the page to add the word 'Kresy' to the first line, to make it clear to uninformed readers what this article has to do with its title. A better solution would be to simply move the article to 'Eastern Borderlands' as suggested above. Terraxos 17:00, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Lies about the percentage of polish population in so-called "Eastern Poland" prior to its liberation by USSR

As many related wikipedia articles,such 'Western Ukraine', hold it,the percentage of polish population in so-called "Eastern Poland" didn't exceed 25%,not 40% as is stated in this article.These lands never constituted part of Poland neither in ethnical,historical nor religious sense.

Frank Russian (talk) 18:15, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

How is it never part of Poland in historical sense when since the 14th century the Kingdom of Poland annexed the territories that once belonged to the Grand Duchy of Kiev? For some 400 years those territories were part of the Polish Crown until the division of Poland. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 23:29, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Current coats of arms

Are for PLC not II Republic of Poland.--Molobo (talk) 19:09, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Demographic data

I will add demographic data based on census.--Molobo (talk) 19:11, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Terrible article

This is article is in terrible shape, it is a one-sided idolized version of the Kresy and pro-Kresowiak view of the region. There is considerable criticism of the Kresy both as part of Polish culture and as region that held Polish development down throughout history and it should be included in the article, while the mythological view toned down.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 15:24, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Molobo, I am fully aware of your anti-Kresy bias. Anyway, if you have time, add information to the article, instead of tagging it. Tymek (talk) 23:54, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Anti-Kresy bias??? The article is written in an ultra-nationalistic manner and implying grpoundless territorial claims against Poland eastern neighbors. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 03:02, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Example:Nothing about "Boża Podszewka"

An example of the distorted view in this article:while there is considerable section about culture, there is nothing about post-89 series Boża Podszewka which stirred numerous reactions and was a major television event. It was very critical of Kresy society and myth of the Kresy.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 15:33, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

So add information about it. It is one thing to rant, and another thing to do something. Tymek (talk) 23:54, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Political correctness

Permanent link to relevant version of the article from 29 August 2013

The introduction of the article sounds hostile towards state sovereignty of both Ukraine and Belarus by laying territorial claims. Is Poland really in a stance of war with those countries? Those territories historically were often contested between Poland and its eastern neighbors. The article starts right out with laying a claim towards Poland. First of all Kresy is a Polish word which for some reason is not identified from beginning, but instead the article starts out with a territorial claim. Second of all the word Kresy is used exclusively by the Polonophone population. The point of the article seems to be ethnocentric and nationalistic that adds only bitterness in Poland-Ukraine relations. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 23:21, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

There is no such thing: Lithuania, Belarus and Ukraine existes. This article is an attempt to rewrite the history. It should be punished like the term "polish death camp" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.9.170.4 (talk) 11:20, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

Territory or the macroregion

I disagree with the opinion that macroregion is an "anachronistic term" (quote from summary). Kresy is a historic entity (read: no longer existing). We can look at how it has been defined in Polish literature and historiography in its entirety. Territory (Polish: terytorium) is used in the Polish language similar to the phrase "territory of the Third Reich" (terytorium Trzeciej Rzeszy). Meanwhile, Kresy is most frequently referred to as "obszar" ... not "terytorium" in Polish. I think the word "obszar" is closer to the word macroregion in English. Your feedback is highly appreciated, Poeticbent talk 04:09, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

Propaganda page

Cannot help feeling, as a historian, how much Polish propaganda is on this page. One of the reasons the Paris Peace Conferences decided upon the Curzon Line was because most of the lands east of it really belong historically to Lithuania, not Poland, the latter absorbing much Lithuanian land during the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, moving settlers into it, and then calling it "Poland". This article is almost comical. 86.170.247.75 (talk) 20:27, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

Education level

Removed the phrase " which was the result of more than one hundred years of Austro-Hungarian and Russian imperial rule."

The source cited does not way so. In order to make this statement you must have two statements: (a) before zaborow Rosyjskich the education was comparable (b) In Congress Poland education grew, but in Kresy it did not. In fact, average education level in Kresy was always low.

The source cited specifically says "analfabetyzm na wsi był powszechny" (illiteracy in the countryside was universal), implying in cities it was no so bad. E.g. Lwow and Wilno were quite pretty well-educated places. Not to say that Warzaw was taken by Russia as well, so "Russian rule" is hardly the sole reason. (and btw. "Austro-Hungarian" is irrelevant here altogether.)

By the way, the source cited says that in a way Russian occupation was beneficiary to the development of industry in Congress Poland, because it opened borders for Polish goods into vast Russian market, which resulted in higher level of urbanization (and hence education). " W ostatnich trzech dekadach XIX w. nastąpił w Królestwie Polskim gwałtowny skok demograficzny, nie mniej potężny wzrost produkcji przemysłowej, wzrost urbanizacji, podniesienie się stopy życiowej. Tym gospodarczym procesom towarzyszył bujny rozwój czasopiśmiennictwa, literatury pięknej, teatru, malarstwa." This progress was not enjoyed by tutejszy in Kresy. So it appears that "Russian imperial rule" was kinda selective.

Conclusion: the statement may have been true, but needs a proper reference. Staszek Lem (talk) 19:24, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

• Here we can see how small the Congress Poland was in comparison with the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth from before the Partitions. It if fair to assume that most inhabitants of the Commonwealth remained in the same territories for generations, subject to religious persecution and economic discrimination. But I totally agree that proper reference needs to be added. Poeticbent talk 03:54, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

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People from Kresy article title

Draft:List of Kresy born Poles is in the works. Should this be renamed to List of people from Kresy? AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 17:34, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

This a reference to the bulk of the Notable people section in the present article, which at 46 is spatially a little long for the article and which I placed on a separate page for ease of reference and potential expansion. Within the present article it is also somewhat random and too short, since many more illustrious people emerged from "Kresy" over the ages. So is a separate list justified as titled in the draft or should there be a category more properly titled "People from Kresy"? The latter should be chronologically distinct from existing categories like "People from Belarus", Minsk and so on.

--Po Mieczu (talk) 22:00, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

You could have both the annotated list and also the category. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 23:19, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

List of People from Kresy would not be correct, as it would include all non-Polish people. I think the current title is fine but it might need a hyphen or such. (Kresy-born Poles, etc.). Alternatively, List of Polish people from Kresy. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:24, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

Piotr Konieczny, is there a reason why the list should be only Polish people that were born in Kresy? What about non-Polish notable people who spent time in Kresy during that period? What about Poles who were born in other Polish regions and lived a substantial time in Kresy during the Kresy period? A lot of regional articles don't make this distinction for their residents. If someone's lived in the area for some significant time, they're usually listed in "People from (region)" and "Notable people". AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 19:17, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

Frankly, I consider such lists (and categories) to be problematic for those reasons. It's like the entire category tree for "People from...", which is unclear whether it's for people born there who left in the childhood, or people who spend many years there (how many?). I don't have a good solution here. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:40, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

Greetings AngusWOOF, accepting the problematic nature of wiki lists and categories as currently constituted: they are arguably mostly imprecise and inconsistent as your very legitimate questions suggest, but they act as a reference point. The current Kresy-born Poles list does actually contain people of French, Jewish, Lithuanian and Ukrainian descent. Perhaps we can only discuss this in approximations but I would wager that what they have in common is that they participated in Polish culture and/or self-identified as Poles. Alongside those Poles, there were indeed people of Rusyn, Armenian heritage among other minorities who chose not to participate in the predominant culture, if only because of their Russian Orthodox allegiance and kept their separateness even when not having a strong national identity politically speaking. Neither they nor the Jews were obliged to convert, nor were the rare Protestants, like Mikołaj Rej. The issue here is that a land mass that had been under Polish state administration for centuries, overnight was despoiled and annexed by a power with a fundamentally hostile agenda to the dominant heritage it actively sought to replace by its own.

There are no precise analogies in the West, but think of the Scots or Irish, who came under the hegemony of the English or yet the French Canadians, some of whom held fast to their original heritage and identity. They found themselves within new borders and would object strongly to being described as "English", or as "American" if they lived in Louisiana shortly after it was taken over. Then, what about the conundrum of white South Africans? Are they truly Africans, or the Afrikaaners who believe they are as their name suggests. I hope you and others will see the purpose of the already existing distinction I merely sought to preserve in transferring the list to its own page. As I said before, why not have a people from Kresy category for all-comers, but then the context is different.--Po Mieczu (talk) 20:48, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

It would be analogous to Category:People of the Republic of Texas which was for a limited period as well. Category:People from Hawaii or Category:People from Taiwan would be just as ambiguous. You have folks who were born there, folks who immigrated there, native/aboriginal populations, people who spent some time there as a resident, people who identify as Hawaiian from any of the above groups. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 21:01, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

Foreign annexation

At the end of the article: "After the war and foreign annexation of Kresy"... Well, in 1919-1921 Poland annexed a lot of territories with a Lithuanian, Belarusian and Ukrainian majority population. Then, during the war (1939), those same Polish-held territories were united to their respective national states (be it Soviet or not) -- and that's a "foreign annexation"? Joan Rocaguinard (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 19:52, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

Well, Joan, by 1795, Russia, Austria and Prussia between them, annexed all of the Commonwealth of Two Nations which contained lots of Ruthenians, Jews, Lithuanian, Belarussian and Polish minorities and majorities. It all depends when you took the metaphorical cake out of the oven and how you sliced it and whether you were after the cream filling or the crumb, in a manner of speaking.--Po Mieczu (talk) 23:55, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

Simple fix - precision. I changed foreign to Soviet. Everyone good with that? :) --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:18, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

English name

I believe we should rename article into its English name: "Eastern Borderlands". It's English Wikipedia and if there's a term in that language it should be prefered over name in the original language. Also, name "Eastern Borderlands" is already used on Wikipedia (including article) as a proper English term and is used on the internet as a translation. Example of that could be Institute of National Resemblance of Poland, being official organization of Polish government (example: article The 2nd edition of the IPN’s educational project ”Polish Eastern Borderlands in the 20th century”). TheEditMate (talk) 10:02, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

TheEditMate,But plenty of English language sources use Kresy too. [1], [2], [3] etc. If you want to move this please provide a proper comparative analysis of GB/GS results. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:18, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Hi Piotrus. Indeed there are still people referring to the area by the Polish name, but at the same time, English name is there, present at the same level, used by many sources including official pages of Polish government. Term is used and I believe that if there's widely used English term, it should be consider on Wikipedia as superior to other-language term. Also, I would like to notice, that the problem with usage of native name instead of other language term isn't limited only to word "kresy". I have noticed that in many cases when people write articles related to something outside the English-speaking world, they tend to usage native language terms instead English, partially because they might not know the English ones or because they might feel that they should use terms native to their language (good examples are names of political parties, organizations, areas ect, all of which usually has English names already used on Wikipedia). Also, about the link you gave me: note that 1st link simply tries to use native names using both Russian and Polish while 3rd link uses "Easter Borderlands" as a proper name only mentioning "Kresy" in brackets, as a native name, same as Wikipedia does with all articles about something that has original names from other languages. About the 3rd article, well notice, that you can do the same with Eastern Borderlands and get a lot of books as well. Also, in my opinion, book authors usually don't tend to have good translations of foreign terms. TheEditMate (talk) 21:58, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

Also, please could you say what you mean by abbreviation GB/GS? TheEditMate (talk) 22:00, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

TheEditMate, Google Books, Google Scholar. I see your point but I am not convinced that the term EB is more popular than Kresy, without a better quantitative analysis. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:17, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

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Inclusion of Białystok?

The article is pretty inconsistent about whether Białystok and its namesake voivodeship, which were returned to Poland by the Soviet Union after the war, are part of the Kresy or not. The lead seemingly contradicts itself on that point, claiming Administratively, the Eastern Borderlands territory was composed of Lwów, Nowogródek, Polesie, Stanisławów, Tarnopol, Wilno, Wołyń, and Białystok voivodeships (provinces). Today, all these regions are divided between Western Ukraine, Western Belarus, and south-eastern Lithuania. Meanwhile, the Kresy#Interwar population section lists the Białystok voivodeship, while Białystok is conspicuously absent from the list of largest cities and towns, despite its pre-war population of 91000.
What should be done to clarify this? Chaotıċ Enby (talk · contribs) 01:31, 9 February 2024 (UTC)