Talk:Sloop

More material needed. For instance:

Control lines Stays Masthead vz 4/5 etc

Also, the History section must be verified and supplemented.

-- Egil 07:58 Feb 11, 2003 (UTC)

The Bluenose was a fishing schooner. What's it doing here? -- Ed Milne Oct 19, 2003

I cleaned up the section on Jamaican Sloops. The rambling and grammar was pretty bad, so I tried to make it more cohesive, linear and encyclopedic (it sounded somewhat juvenile, or translated from a foreign language). None of the other sections seemed quite so egregious, but I'm sure the whole article could use an overhaul. The Cap'n (talk) 19:48, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Too difficult to understand

This may be OK for sailors, but not for lay people. The opening sentences are baffling. Readers cannot be expected to click on so many links to find definitions of the terms -- it would be an almost never-ending story. It needs to be understandable in itself, with the links available for more detailed information. Please could someone in the know fix this? APW (talk) 15:07, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Pawebster's points taken, I will endeavor to address them. That having been said, I must acknowledge that this, as it stands now on the 4th of September, 2009, is one of the hands-down best-written articles I've yet seen on Wikipedia. To whomever is the original author, my hat is off to you. rowley (talk) 18:00, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Modern?

I'm having trouble with the concept of calling a sloop "modern" when it dates back hundreds of years. In general modern is associated with the latest and greatest and there are many experiments going on in completely different sail designs. I'm trying to think of anything else we call modern that is this this old.Pbmaise (talk) 06:21, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

The meaning of words evolve. I am not yet 50 years old, and I believe that the meaning of sloop has changed in my lifetime. When I was learning to sail in the early '70s, I was taught that the difference between a sloop and a cutter was the placement of the single mast. A cutter was a single masted sailboat where the distance between the bow and the mast was more than 40% of the overall length. By this definition, at least 3 of the 8 modern fiberglass sailboats that I have owned (including a Cal 25, a Ranger 26, and a Santa Cruz 27) were cutters. However, in modern terminology all of these boats would be considered sloops since none of them carry more than one headsail. I believe the design feature that now differentiates a cutter from a sloop is an inner forestay on which a second headsail is carried. On further reflection, I believe that the definition of "cutter" that was taught to me in the early '70s was already obsolete.

I would propose changing the headings to reflect a modern definition, an early 20th century definition (the 40% rule), and a historical definition. The early 20th century definition solves the problem of the friendship sloop.

As for the historical definition, I would point out that it had more to do with the size of the vessel than the sailing rig. If the historical novels of Patrick O'Brien are accurate, a small, square rigged, two-masted or 3-masted warship would sometimes be properly called a sloop. O'Brien even made the point that the difference between a sloop of war and some other ship of war (such as perhaps a frigate) depended not only on the vessel itself but sometimes on the rank of her commander. This would best be covered under a separate article for "sloop of war". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Steverlou (talk • contribs) 07:44, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

All good points. A historian (which I am not) would, I believe, consider "modern" to be anything from the renaissance to present day, whilst what was "modern" in 2011 may already be out of date in 2019! Best avoid the vexatious word altogether and as Steverlou suggests be specific: e.g. "early 20th century" or even "by 1980 [add cite] a sloop was defined strictly by number of headsails". See also my comment on Sloops vs Cutters below. D Anthony Patriarche (talk) 13:46, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

Sloops vs Cutters

"Ultimately, the position of the mast is the most important factor in determining whether a ship is classified as a sloop." I disagree. The distinction is solely a matter of the number of headsails; and the mast position is simply a function of that fact. For example, some catamaran sloops have a huge genoa foresail and a tiny mainsail, while others have a more conventional small jib; and the mast is moved forward or aft in consequence. Arrivisto (talk) 00:06, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Like Steverlou (above) I was taught that a cutter is defined by mast position; that in turn determines the number of headsails that may conveniently be carried. Clearly, local usage varies, and the terminology is evolving. Here on Vaancouver Island an acquaintance owns a cutter-rigged sloop. To further muddy the waters, the body of the article describes a particular sloop with multiple headsails; presumably, such a vessel is a sloop either by its mast position or by mere convention. D Anthony Patriarche (talk) 14:02, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

A further thought occurs to me: We define a yawl, ketch and schooner by the number & position of masts. Why would a sloop be different? There are many pictures online of classic Bermuda sloops with 2 or more headsails. --D Anthony Patriarche (talk) 00:50, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

Clarification and Citation Needed

Please clarify: "In the USA a sloop may have one, two or three head-sails forward of the mast—the term cutter not generally being used for sailboats. In the rest of the English speaking world, a sloop has only one head-sail and if a vessel has two or more head-sails, she is termed a 'cutter' and its mast may be set further aft than on a sloop." Also, a citation is needed that references the cultural differences in the naming of these vessels. PriestAB (talk) 17:59, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

Sidestay?

“A sloop has a simple system of mast stays—a forestay, backstay, and sidestays.” I need to be careful here because I am no authority on nautical terms but I haven't come across the term "sidestay" before. It is clear what is meant. Is it the standard in some particular region? I have looked up the term in a number of dictionaries and such as “en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_nautical_terms#S” and I can't find a single example of it. I have changed it to the standard “shroud”. PeterColdridge (talk) 22:25, 2 November 2015 (UTC) If you google sidestay several retails mention adjusters for "sidestays". I prefer shroud but sidestay is not wrong.

Modern Naval Definition

This section claims a sloop is intermediate between a corvette and a frigate. However the use of the sloop designation by the Royal Navy in the 20th Century occurred during a period when the corvette and frigate definitions were out of use, and in fact corvette and frigate were specifically reintroduced to cover vessels that didn't clearly fit the sloop designations - first the whaler derived Flower Class Corvettes (WWII), then the River class Frigates (initially Fast Corvettes). So corvette and frigate can be defined from sloop, but not vice-versa. Ultimately the RN's 1945 Sloop requirement was retitled the 1945 Frigate (see Friedman's British Destroyers and Frigates), so the claim that Frigates are larger is problematical. A better definition might link to the definitions of auxiliary vessels in the various interwar naval treaties - no more than 4 guns of less than 6", speed of no greater than 20 knots, drawing a distinction between the RN's use of the classification for Ocean and Coastal Escorts and Minesweepers, while France and Portugal, for instance, used the same provision for colonial patrol vessels under the Aviso name. And of course using 'Modern Naval Definition' as the title for a section describing a classification that went out of use in the 1950s is problematical.