Talk:Hogmanay

Pronunciation

So, like how do you pronounce this word? - Anon reader —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.180.172.163 (talk • contribs) 02:11, 1 January 2005

Something like hog-mah-NAY, as I recall, but we should find a Scot to be sure. —Morven 01:42, Jan 1, 2005 (UTC)

Absolutely correct, Morven. Lang may yer lum reek! (and other Hogmanay greetings). -- Derek Ross | Talk 08:49, 2005 Jan 1 (UTC) (A genuine Scot)

I've added a pronunciation guide to the article. rossb 16:28, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I think that as it's a Scots word it's fair enough to give the pronunciation in Scottish Standard English -- i.e. no eɪ diphthong or ɒ vowel, which aren't used in SSE -- so I've changed the IPA accordingly. A guid new year tae aabodie, whan it comes -- Mendor 13:55, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

I'd like to take issue with the professed pronunciation. Yes, it's spelt Hog- , but in the entirety of my experience, and limited to actual Scots speakers, it is pronounced HUG-ma-NAY; that is, there is a half-stress on HUG, ma is unstressed, and a full stress on NAY.

Nuttyskin 22:23, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Just goes to show you've never met me. I agree with what you've got to say about stressing. But some Scots say "hug"; some say "hog". I'm one of the latter. -- Derek Ross | Talk 14:39, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I'd back up Nuttyskin and say HUG-ma-NAY is the more often used "correct" pronunciation, especially among well-educated Scots. I was a Hog-, now I've become a Hug- :0) Any more in favour and I think we should change the pronunciation guide. And what about that frightening and ill-timed storm that wiped out outdoor Hogmanay activities for many last week? EdX20 21:08, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

As a total aside, one thing that totally rips my knitting is when people sing "Old lang ZYNE"...admittedly this is mainly a USAican thing, but grates a tad.2.125.67.44 (talk) 01:41, 22 June 2013 (UTC)Lance Tyrell

Which foot?

Is it important for the first foot to cross a threshold in the new year be a right foot (i.e. not a left one)? Doops | talk 20:57, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

The first foot is a person not a foot, so the question doesn't really make sense. The important thing about the person is not which foot they use to cross the threshold but whether they are tall, dark, rich, handsome, male and bearing the appropriate gifts (score one luck point for each of the foregoing that applies to your first foot, <grin>). -- Derek Ross | Talk 02:06, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

OK, sorry; I should have asked about the first foot's first foot. :) Doops | talk 04:38, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Is there any evidence to back up the "hug me now" suggestion being true? -- (Someone who didn't sign)

Not that I know of. That is why the article says However none of these is more than guesswork. There is little or no evidence for any of the suggested etymologies including the "hug-me-now" one. -- Derek Ross | Talk 00:44, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Some of the suggestions are more likely than others. I'd say the most likely one was the Old English. The indication that it was a Lowland tradition makes the Gaelic suspect, and a number of Old English words have survived in the Scots dialect despite being extinct in Modern English.Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 10:27, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Where I live in Scotland it depends who says Hogmanay - there are a group who seem intent in pronouncing "O" as "U" whilst a lot of the people still pronounce the "O" as "O". It seems the group are of the same literacy level as the very plum in the mouth women who if they cannot find their VOLVO car will ask even complete strangers if they have seen the "VULVA" and usually they tend to be rather pretty ugly! The same women also don't fly in an aeroplane or aircraft they board an "Aee ru plarn." They seem to think it sound educated - it doesn't it marks them as ignorant and are of the same ilk that start a sentence with "So what we have here is ...," or "It's kind of like raining ... and I'm kind of getting wet ..." The importation of USA film "star" ignorance in to the language is deplorable. As far as I am concerned I shall continue to pronounce the word HOG MAH NAY. A TRUE SCOT from Balmedie - Trump where was your forebears at Culloden - probably alongside Salmond's hiding in the furthest bothy! Mine were alongside the Prince on his right side! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.2.245.95 (talk) 11:03, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

Has this something to do with this discussion about first-footing, or with anything in the article at all, or is it a personal rant? Ibadibam (talk) 18:32, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

Greetings

so, how does one wish someone else a happy hogmanay? What is commonly said - what do cards say, etc? "Happy Hogmanay?" "Merry Hogmanay?"

What are the traditional and common greetings?

Not sure about traditional in Scotland, but my Grandfather used to follow the same ritual every Hogmanay. The first footer always brings a small bag of salt, a small piece of coal and a bottle of whiskey, and knocks on the door on the stroke of midnight. When I was a young lad, the first footer was also accompanied by a piper who would play "My Home" or some other good tune! The first footer would greet the home owner with something like:

Good sir, I bring you salt to salt your meat, and I bring you coal to keep your fire lit. From me and mine, to you an yours Happy New year, and lang may your lum reak! The first footer then hands over the salt and coal.

The home owner then responds with something like, and a happy new year to you and yours. Will you share a dram before joining us?

At this point, a nip of scotch is shared from their respective bottles, with the toast being (I don't know the spelling so I will write it phoenetically) slanjee va!

The the first footer and the home owner enter the house together and everyone in the houselhold takes a wee dram from both bottles. In our houselhold, it didn't matter if you were 5 or 50, you still got a nip.

We carry on the tradition to this day!

slanjee va!

This is the Gaelic slainte bha, "Your health!" This is often shortened to "Slainte!" ("Health!"), pronounced slanj.

Evidently fed up with people asking for someone called Slaynt, a Scottish kilt hire firm has begun using the spelling Slanj.

Nuttyskin 23:57, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

The correct spelling is "Slàinte Mhath". Pronunciation (in IPA): [ˈsl̴aːɲʧə vã]). The literal meaning is "Good Health", but as it is used as a toast is also sometimes given the colloquial translation of "Cheers!" --Kathryn NicDhàna 05:25, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I was told by an old Scottish lady (who died about 10yr ago) about a Hogmanay tradition of standing in a circle around a camp fire and throwing young children over it to someone who would catch the child on them other side.

She also said it's roots went right back to Pagan worship of "Molec", to whom the Pagans sacrificed their childred in the fire.

The only greeting that I know of in common and current use is "Happy New Year", accompanied by a firm handshake and perhaps a kiss for members of the opposite sex. This greeting is usually exchanged the first time people meet after midnight on the 31st, and may happen several days or even weeks into the new year. I have never seen or even heard of hogmanay or new year greetings cards. Oh, and Happy New Year to you all.--User:MrPurple 19:30, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

there's a custom of writing your name on a stone and putting it in the fire. Any stone not in the fire or broken will indicate the death of the owner. 93.233.35.213 (talk) 10:17, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

In answer to the original question, I've never heard 'Happy Hogmanay' or any variation of that used in Scotland. As Mr Purple says, people wish each other 'Happy New Year'; I'd add that I was told as a small child in no uncertain terms that it was something verging on bad luck to wish a Happy New Year before the bells (i.e. before midnight). If speaking to somebody you wouldn't be seeing at the turn of the year, I was taught that the done thing was to say 'have a good New Year when it comes'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.121.111.56 (talk) 17:20, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Steak pie?

Houl oan a meenut. just put a cite needed about that Steak pie. While it sounds delectable, dindins on the last day for anyone that I know consists of the final Xmas remnants or the first set of new mince to arrive in the fridge once Teescos has reopened! AND..shouldn't it be a mutton pie? Brendandh 03:05, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

The article is a bit random with it's layout.. Even though it doesn't come under "Ne'er Day", steak pie is traditionally eaten then.. Probably to sober folk up, and to start the year on a good meal (completely guesswork on my part). What people eat on Hogmanay, is another matter! 82.41.97.29 00:18, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, steak pie is definitely associated with Ne'erday, with the associated belief that it is to sober you up following Hogmanay festivities. Bloody good meal too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Breadandcheese (talk • contribs) 03:03, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Bank holiday

1st and 2nd are bank holidays in Scotland, not the 3rd.--Brideshead 15:06, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Not strictly true I'm afraid, see the section of the article entitled Ne'er day which clarifies things. Fraslet 15:11, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

I can't find an article entitled ne'er day, however the Bank Holiday page states that 1st and 2nd are holidays. --Brideshead 17:57, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

I was referring to the section of the Hogmanay article which is entitled Ne'erday. Fraslet 17:59, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Popularity

If you ask most Scots nowadays how their Hogmanay was, the most common response seems to be "Oh, very quiet". It seems the first-footing custom is in danger of dying out. When I was a teenager the first-footing and parties seemed to last for days. What do others think, and maybe a paragragh on this subject would enhance the article. EdX20 21:14, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Whilst Hogmany is still a big thing in Scotland, the old traditions like first-footing etc. are becoming increasingly rare. I would warrant many Scottish children don't even know what first-footing is! 2.102.81.66 (talk) 16:44, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Etymology

Was this any more or less uncited and dubious than any of the others? Why single it out for deletion? 172.216.71.238 (talk) 21:21, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

No, no more uncited, arguable if it's any more dubious. Uncited and dubious it is though, which is enough to ditch it. Was a new edit therefore highlighted as a change and very quick to undo. It doesn't mean I'm endorsing the rest of the article or indeed vast swathes of uncited text throughout Wikipedia. If you reckon it's credible and have a citation, by all means add it back. That whole section could do with in-text citations. Mutt Lunker (talk) 23:12, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Here is a possible etymology from Scots Gaelic: the phrase 'Theacht Mheán Oíche' [the coming of midnight] is pronounced 'Hacht Man Ee Ha' which is close enough to Hogmany for my liking. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.144.162.34 (talk) 11:28, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Sorry but that's not even Scots Gaelic - that's Irish, you're pronunciation is way off and in any case, we'd need a reference for this. Akerbeltz (talk) 11:55, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

I don't want to quibble but old French is usually considered to have been replaced by early modern French around 1400 CE, long before the 16th century... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.220.98.159 (talk) 16:10, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

Good point, fixing! Akerbeltz (talk) 05:16, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

I've never, ever heard the Spanish word aguinaldo cited as a possible origin. It should be removed in my opinion. 82.108.205.6 (talk) 15:43, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't know what the (clearly now removed) reference said, but it is indeed very likely that the Spanish word aguinaldo/aguilando (an end-of-year gift or bonus), while not an origin for the word hogmanay, is nevertheless cognate with it. See the Dictionary of the Scots Language entry:

The orig. of the word has been much disputed but the only satisfactory etym. is the derivation from North. Fr. dial. hoginane, with variants hoginono, hoguinettes, etc. from 16th c. Fr. aguillanneuf, a gift given at the New Year, a children's cry for such a gift, New Year's Eve, the second element of which appears to be l'an neuf, the New Year. Agui- is obscure (not < au gui). A similar development is found in Sp. aguinaldo, id. In Scot. the word is prob. due to the French Alliance and had been borrowed a.1560.

Picapica (talk) 21:21, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

I've added a note with a ref to the RAE dictionary in relation to the French. Seems like it's an unclear word even in Spanish/French! Akerbeltz (talk) 12:31, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

Crossed Arms

"It has become traditional for this to be sung in a circle of linked arms that are crossed over one another as the clock strikes midnight for New Year's Day." Hmm. Well yes and no. It has indeed become traditional, but properly, the arms shouldn\t be crossed until the last verse. Adding info to this effect. Tpacw (talk) 09:40, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Can you explain why this is the proper way to do it and cite it please? Mutt Lunker (talk) 14:20, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Tpacw. In Scotland arms are traditionally not crossed until the second verse (at "And there's a hand, my trusty fiere! And gie's a hand o' thine!") - but finding a reliable source for this is not so easy... Maybe UKnetguide, or SingMe? Not great sources, perhaps... Or how about the one cited at Auld Lang Syne: [1]? SNALWIBMA ( talk - contribs ) 15:03, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I would also agree, instinctively, but obviously that cuts no ice here. Was just pointing out that this kind of statement needs backed up. I reckon the Lancashire Evening Telegraph one is a good citation. Would be interesting to find more info on why arms are crossed in the last verse, when people started doing it, where they started doing it etc.. Mutt Lunker (talk) 16:42, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Um, I think there was an indirect source on the Auld Lang Syne page, which mentioned the Queen crossing arms when it was sung at the millenium, and how this is 'correct practice'. I'll go and dig it up. Tpacw (talk) 19:24, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Its very simple really "And there's a hand, my trusty fiere!' You give a hand to the next guy - 'And gie's a hand o' thine!' he passes his to you. They are then crossed. I should imagine it would be difficult to verify unless there is an anthropological text on it somewhere. We were crossing arms long before the millennium but how reliable is a report on a modern Queen as an indication of past custom? Tarzanlordofthejungle (talk) 10:24, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

That's the Lancashire Evening Telegraph one. I have inserted it into this page too. SNALWIBMA ( talk - contribs ) 20:49, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

At one time at the end of the night, regardless if it was New Year or not at every dance, wedding or any sort of party, Auld Lang Syne was sung. The arms were never crossed till the verse " and gies the hand o' thine". Auld Lang Syne sung is very rarely sung now at the end of celebrations and is normally reserved for Hogmanay.. As far as I am concerned, there is no argument. The arms are not crossed till the noted verse and never before. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.4.35.103 (talk) 01:10, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

The way I've always done it: Hold hands for first verse/chorus, not crossed, but swinging hand in and out. Second verse - cross hands. Second chorus - hands still crossed, everyone charges into the middle of the room on first line, out again on second, in again on third. Is this common? 86.169.17.77 (talk) 20:33, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

1954 Scottish cookbook talks about some Hogmanay traditions

I found this 1954 cookbook which was compiled by a Miss F. Marian McNeille who (according to the text) published a work on Scottish folk-lore entitled "The Silver Bough".

It has a couple pages that discuss old Hogmanay traditions, and there are some "traditional" recipes for "Hogmanay fare" and maybe be worth looking at for material. On the other hand its suitability as a reference is up for debate.

Not being fluent in Scottish phrases I am afraid I don't understand all of the words but maybe someone here does. For example; "...the chappin' o' the Twal'..." is completely lost on me but my instinct says it ought to be mentioned in this article or the first-foot article. 66.102.205.172 (talk) 15:46, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Good find!. "...the chappin' o' the Twal'..." means "...the knocking of the Twelve..." if that helps. I would guess that it means knocking on a door twelve times at midnight or something similar. I'll take a look at the pamphlet. -- Derek Ross | Talk 17:21, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

And having read it in context, I can confirm that it means "the striking of twelve o'clock", ie the ringing of the midnight bells at New Year. By the way, we already have an article on F. Marian McNeill which mentions The Silver Bough. I have no doubt that the latter 4 volume treatise passes the WP:RS guidelines and contains rather more info on Hogmanay customs then Miss McNeill's brief notes in the pamphlet. -- Derek Ross | Talk 17:28, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm. Since the pamphlet notes that she has "recently" published Vol I of The Silver Bough and she published the first volume in 1957 and the second in 1959, this pamphlet was most likely published in 1957, not 1954. -- Derek Ross | Talk 18:22, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Kincardineshire no longer exists?

Brideshead's edit on 31st Dec 09 states that Stonehaven is in Aberdeenshire because "Kincardineshire hasn't existed for years". I would challenge that. Whilst it is true that the local government region of Kincardineshire no longer exists, the county itself quite definately does, and Stonehaven is quite definately in it. For instance, see the location information given by Google maps for Stonehaven Firechucker (talk) 14:04, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Kincardineshire does still exist as a Lord Lieutenancy area but it is more common to say Stonehaven is within Aberdeenshire than Kincardineshire as Kincardineshire is purely ceremonial. Although from my experience from living nearby in Banchory post addressed as Kincardineshire still reached us. People still use it but in all the time I lived in Banchory I never used the term Kincardineshire. Micropot (talk) 23:11, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

Irish spelling

Shouln't theacht meán oíche" be spelt theacht mean oíche - the fada over the a seems wrong, but I'm not fluent enough to be certain.Autarch (talk) 20:13, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

No the fada is correct. Akerbeltz (talk) 21:52, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Definition of Ne'erday is unclear

The text says of Ne'erday "When Ne'erday falls on a Sunday, 3 January becomes an additional public holiday in Scotland" but nowhere does it say when Ne'erday is normally. i am guessing that it is 2 Jan but it does not say

Jpff (talk) 11:13, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

It's the 1st of January. -- Derek Ross | Talk 02:04, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, it comes from 'New Years Day' WeeJimmyFaeGorgie (talk) 11:59, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Tall dark men as first-footers

Tall dark men? Could this be ambiguous? Should it be changed to "tall, dark-haired men" or, and here I'm going by a childhood memory, can the term 'dark' also cover their clothing? I seem to remember a reference to coalmen (i.e. coal merchants or miners) fitting the bill, but that may have been an adult joke at my expense! Kim Traynor (talk) 13:44, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Well, it's true that it means dark-haired men (since such men would appear pretty white-skinned to anyone not used to the really pale redheads and sandy-haired individuals also found in Scotland) but I don't think it should necessarily be changed to that since "tall, dark stranger" is the normal phrase. Perhaps a little clarification is in order though. -- Derek Ross | Talk 04:50, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Local customs

In her memoir Voices in the Street, Growing up in Dundee (2006) Maureen Reynolds writes, "It was eight o'clock on Hogmanay, the last night of 1941, and we were all busy cleaning the house. This annual tradition had to be tackled before the start of a new year." She goes on to describe in some detail a thorough cleaning of the house with the whole family involved. Unfortunately, she does not state whether this was just a family tradition, or was also being done in other households. I assume most families would have cleaned up their houses in advance of receiving first-footing visitors, but I wonder if anyone can help confirm that this was a widespread ritual? If we receive several comments confirming it was geographically widespread, it would be worth adding to the article under the Customs section heading. Kim Traynor (talk) 13:57, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

I can confirm that this was a widespread custom. Whether it still is, is another matter. It's part of the renewal theme for the New Year. -- Derek Ross | Talk 04:55, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

It is my understanding too that Reynolds is not simply referring to her family or to a Dundee tradition, but to a national tradition. Brought up in Edinburgh, we certainly had to made sure that the house was spotless before the dawn of the new year, and I'm pretty sure that that intention (perhaps nowadays largely remaining an intention rather than an act?) is still very widespread throughout the country. --Mais oui! (talk) 07:31, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Opening and closing of windows, doors

The opening and closing of doors used to be practiced in Edinburgh at least till the 1970's. I seem to remember the front doors were opened to let the new year in and the back doors opened to let the old year out. Can't remember the exact format but remember this being practiced. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.4.35.103 (talk) 01:03, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Yep, we used to do that in Aberdeen too. -- Derek Ross | Talk 17:37, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

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Removal of Scots IPA and wikilinks

@Zacwill: could you provide a little context for this edit? It looks like you removed some content and wikilinks without explaining why. Ibadibam (talk) 01:43, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

I removed the Scots IPA because it was identical to the Scottish English IPA. Including both is clunky and tautological. The other edits seemed to me to improve the flow of the article. And it's silly to suggest the auld alliance was the reason for the introduction of French words into Scots. The English never had such an alliance, but English is full of French loan words. Zacwill (talk) 10:56, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

I really question the need for any pronunciation guide at all. What is the evidence that any competent English speaker finds the word difficult to pronounce? John (talk) 14:25, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

Because of the 400 million native speakers of English only 60 million live in the UK and consequently might be familiar with the word - that is without counting the remaining 600 million L2 speakers elsewhere in the world who are likely totally unfamiliar with the word - and probably more likely to look it up than someone who already knows what it is. The term is opaque, it's not like it's a word like greenfly or flapjack... it could equally be hɔg'manɪ or 'hɔgmənaj. Pronunciation guides for opaque words are the norm, rather than the exception: Leicester, York, Albuquerque... Akerbeltz (talk) 18:20, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

York? Anyway I asked for evidence and you gave an opinion instead. I take it you don't have any? --John (talk) 20:52, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

You want to change something that is commonplace and informative on Wikipedia. The onus is on you to prove that the information is superfluous. Good luck with that. Akerbeltz (talk) 11:49, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

Nice idea, but that isn't how we work. Frankly the article is shit, and this just brings the comedy in early. --John (talk) 21:23, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

I can throw around WP links too, there is nothing in the style manual which says pronunciation ought to be excluded from certain pages. Why don't you float your "idea" over there? As for the overall article, you're probably right, I only really watch the etymology section which I tidied up some time ago. Why don't you spend time improving the "shit" rather than arguing the toss about IPA in the lead? Akerbeltz (talk) 10:44, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

I have been. Most of it will have to go if it cannot be sourced, including your daft IPA. John (talk) 11:10, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

And the prize for the first person in 2017 re-confirming my reasons for scaling down my involvement on the English Wikipedia goes to you. Akerbeltz (talk) 12:09, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

Certainly the pronunciation is interesting and unpredictable and ought to be included (with sources), but it needs to be made clear how the word is pronounced in various types of English and which variety you are talking about at a given time. If Scots put the stress on a different syllable than standard English English speakers, then both forms should be noted. A footnote might be used for detailed information. W. P. Uzer (talk) 13:43, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

Exactly. There are different pronunciations, and they need to be sourced. A footnote is the place for this, not cluttering up the lead. John (talk) 14:08, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

That's not what WP Uzer said John. He said that detailed information should go in a footnote. The IPA belongs in the lead, same as on any other page with IPA for the page name. Akerbeltz (talk) 14:15, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for telling me what the other user's opinion is, and for repeating yours for the third time. How are you getting on with those sources? John (talk) 14:50, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

I am not Scottish, and I wouldn't dream of editing this article at all. BUT it has to be said (frequently, loudly, and directly) that "sources" do not in themselves have very much to do with the quality of an article. A truly "bad" article is just bad, and any source that seems to "verify" it is ipso facto either unreliable in itself, or being misquoted. What a rubbishy article needs is to be rewritten in a factual manner by someone who knows what they are talking about - all the sources on earth can't save it. The most important value of good (reliable) sources is actually that they provide background or "further" reading for someone with a continuing interest in the subject concerned. The other reason they are there, which is already done to death in various essays and guidelines here, is "verifiability". This assumes that the source has been "sighted" (seen, in fact read!) as well as "cited" and that it is not only relevant to the case in point, but is supportive of what the article says. The common schoolboy (and undergraduate) trick of "citing someone else's citation", or sticking in references to books, articles, or forum posts that seems to be on the same subject regardless of whether they bear on the point in question, is positively pernicious. Worse still is the gentleman (if female, she is definitely no lady) who takes the most authoritative reference they can find and attaches it to their opinionated POV dribble, deliberately disregarding or even cold-bloodedly contradicting the direction or sense of the original. We have all met this person, I suspect. The good sources don't say what they want - so they lie about what they do say. This is the point when assumption of good faith fails - when bad faith is manifestly proven. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 23:17, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

IPA does not require sources unless the phonetic details are contested. The etymology section is referenced and I don't care enough about the English Wikipedia any more to edit the rest of the article as I already told you. So whatever unicorn you're expecting, it ain't coming. Akerbeltz (talk) 11:44, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

If you really don't care Wikipedia wouldn't it be more pleasant for everyone concerned if you went somewhere you DO care about and bothered them? If you mean you care enough to give everyone the [naughty word expunged to protect the innocent] but not enough to be even the tiniest bit constructive then even more so, of course. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 07:57, 5 January 2017 (UTC)

I "patrol" a few pages I invested a lot of time in over the years because there's always some editor on a crusade against Gaelic, Basques, IPA, you name it. The stuff I happen to care about and would hate to see fall by the wayside because someone else is on a crusade. That's why I kick up a fuss when someone like John thinks that for reasons best know to himself, it's adequate for the London page to have IPA for London but not Hogmanay. So no, I won't go away even if I do most of my "constructive editing" as you'd call it on non-English wikis these days. Akerbeltz (talk) 11:15, 5 January 2017 (UTC)

• I see no reason why the pronunciation should not be given. The word is unusual from my perspective, and I imagine there are plenty of people who aren't so accustomed to Scots spelling enough that they can determine whether ay represents /ei/ or /ai/ or /i/. As for sources, the OED gives the "Scottish" (not sure if this means Scots or Scottish English) pronunciation /ˈhɔɡməne, hɔɡməˈne/ as well as the RP pronunciations /ˈhɒɡməneɪ, hɒɡməˈneɪ/ and the US pronunciation /ˈhɑɡməˌneɪ/. So the current pronunciation is equivalent to the Scottish pronunciation given by the OED. It spells /e/ with a vowel length sign, [eː], since a syllable-final /e/ is pronounced phonetically long by the Scottish vowel length rule. — Eru·tuon 08:07, 5 January 2017 (UTC)

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A 'Scots' word or an English word?

The opening sentence reads:

Hogmanay (Scots: [ˌhɔɡməˈneː];[1] English: /ˌhɒɡməˈneɪ/ HOG-mə-NAY[2]) is the Scots word for the last day of the year and is synonymous with the celebration of the New Year (Gregorian calendar) in the Scottish manner.

But surely it is actually an English Language word but one now applied mainly, or perhaps only, to a generally Scottish festival. It can't be a specifically or exclusively Scottish dialect word since it was also a commonplace name in the north of England (see OED). Indeed the first ever recorded use of the word was in Yorkshire in England.

So might I suggest changing the opening sentence to read:

Hogmanay (Scots: [ˌhɔɡməˈneː];[1] English: /ˌhɒɡməˈneɪ/ HOG-mə-NAY[2]) is an historic northern English and Scottish name for the last day of the year. Today it is most commonly thought of as synonymous with the celebration of the New Year specifically in Scotland or in the Scottish manner. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.210.223.89 (talk) 15:58, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

Since it's long been obsolete in English, I don't think we should refer to it as "English". But we can add something to the etymology section. Akerbeltz (talk) 01:39, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

Well strictly speaking even if 'Hogmanay' describes something which only applies to Scotland it must still be a word in the English Language, like 'loch', since it's in the OED. And this is an English Language Wikipedia. We might then mean merely that it only applies to something uniquely Scottish and not in England, but is that even true? Perhaps some folk in the northern counties of England do still call New Year's Day Hogmanay in which case it isn't obsolete in England anyway. A tricky one I think. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.108.174.63 (talk) 19:07, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

We could just avoid the whole headache and call it something like "what the New Year celebration is called in Scotland" without going into what language it is. Akerbeltz (talk) 12:48, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

Just a thought

Is Hogmanay related to Ogma, a Scottish and Irish god. hmm unproven but interesting since Ogma is thought to derive from cut, like cutting a string for the new year.

I doubt references exist but it is feasible that a god comes to be a celebration, look at Germanic Easter/ Eostre. Chocolateediter (talk) 18:30, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

Ogma is pronounced /oːmə/ i.e. there's no audible /g/ in Irish or Scots Gaelic. For the /g/ to have carried into Anglo-Saxon, the borrowing would have had to occur prior to Middle Irish at least when the g was possibly still a /ɣ/, which makes it rather unlikely. Careful with just reading the letters of Old Irish words as if it was English, it's almost always wrong. Akerbeltz (talk) 20:37, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

@Akerbeltz:What about a Brythoneg origin, or through it or a descendant of it, is that feasible. Mostly likely it would be on a Strathclyde/Cumbria mixing. A /g/ is prominent enough in Welsh. They is a stopping point in that records of it would be next to non-existent. It could easily have been influenced by Anglo-Norse and or Irish in someways. Northern Irish and Scottish links are strong as well as a lot of England and Scotland land swapping. Chocolateediter (talk) 17:56, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

I would be nice if it a resurgence in Northern England occurred. It’s died off by Saxon-ise-ing, so sad it hasn’t yet. I hope hagman-heigh does, from North Yorkshire. Chocolateediter (talk) 18:11, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

"The first-foot is supposed to set the luck for the rest of the year." Still celebrate that, most traditions must still exist in someways round here. Chocolateediter (talk) 18:25, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

Hm for starters you'd have to prove that Ogma is indeed a variant of Ogmios and that's a tough one to crack. None of what you said is impossible but it certainly is pretty impossible to prove to musings aside, it's not going to fly on this page I'm afraid :) Akerbeltz (talk) 11:51, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

I know it will not be proven unless evidence is found as the section implies, Just a thought. Ogmios, Oghma and Hogmanay are so close in form.-se ending in old Northern England reference is a possible link to a s ending in Ogmios or just Northern Subject Rule. While NSR could mean it was a celebration of Ogma/Ogmios. What else would be why an s(e) existed on it, suppose NSR(thought to be inherited from Brythonic) is common enough just to be Hogmanay’s celebration? Chocolateediter (talk) 16:36, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

PS:1443 Hagnonayse West Riding (forgot spelling so had to re-look at article) Chocolateediter (talk) 16:42, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

Comparing single surface forms is very thin ice when working with etymologies. On the face of it, polish and Polish are the same word. Or isle and island look like they should have the same origin (they don't). The -s could simpley be re-analysis of an inflection, it's not uncommon for a genitive to become a nominative or - if it were a borrowing - for the giver form to be not the nominative. Akerbeltz (talk) 11:17, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

Oh well atleast I had a shot and in future if evidence is found(unlikely) then this is always here as a speculative theory. The -s was earlier, is they other spellings with -s or was it a standalone. Chocolateediter (talk) 13:44, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

Origin

As far as I know, there is no actual historical evidence linking Scottish Hogmanay to any pre-Christian celebration whatsoever. It is all totally speculative, as is the supposed link between holding "Yule" and the 12 days of Christmas. In his book "The Stations of the Sun", Professor Hutton puts the origins of Hogmanay celebrations firmly down to the suppression of Christmas by puritanical protestants. (Dmottram (talk) 12:16, 23 November 2020 (UTC))

Gregorian calendar

The Gregorian calendar is mentioned twice near the top of the article, which seems to suggest that it particularly important. The only credible alternative is the Julian calendar, which Scotland used until the Calendar (New Style) Act 1750 (Westminster). As written, the text would suggest that Hogmanay never happened before 1752, which I doubt is intended? If it is just a disambig, then a footnote is plenty. Any objections to my doing that?

Does anyone have any material about response to the 1752 calendar change in Scotland? Did nobody object to New Year's Eve suddenly moving from 21 days after the solstice to just ten? The Calendar Act article has material on English complaints about Christmas being moved but nothing about any Scottish reaction.

Calendar (New Style) Act 1750#Scotland has material on the Order in Council of 1599 by which Scotland changed its New Year's Day from 25 March to 1 January. Does anything need adding?

Hidden agenda: I have been working to improve the Calendar Act article and this is a loose end that it would be nice to tie in. So suggestions will be very welcome. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 08:54, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

mention Biggar Bonfire

it'd be good to write something about the Biggar bonfire: https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q124069141 RedAuburn (talk) 20:07, 1 January 2024 (UTC)