Talk:Thing-Fish

Thing-Fish was a Music good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
May 6, 2012	Good article nominee	Not listed

Albums

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Progressive Rock Low‑importance

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Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Frank Zappa (inactive)

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Frank Zappa, a project which is currently considered to be inactive.Frank ZappaWikipedia:WikiProject Frank ZappaTemplate:WikiProject Frank ZappaFrank Zappa articles

Comment

Please help resolve the spelling of David Ocker's (Oker?) name. He is billed by both names on the ArtistDirect web site as playing the Synclavier. I assumed that was a typo and merged the entries. Anyone have this album? -- Dave C. 19:33, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I'm going with 'Ocker', based on the pathetic 69 hits from a google for "david oker", and this. Flower party 03:00, 9 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I noticed that this page is in the 'albums of unknown importance' category. It is at times a challenging or even combative listen. If the album does not drive you insane, you will have a much stronger mind after listening to it a few times. Thing-Fish touches on Tuskegee, and the cover of the album looks suspiciously like the picture in this article: [1]. Larry Flynt contributed funds for production, and published several pages of photographs following the plot of the Thing-Fish album in his magazine. That's a landmark album! We could take this feature! Listen to the album a few times, surely thousands of pop culture references can be extracted from the script.

I think the cultural relevance section of this page is completely POV and is the authors attempt to rectify the content of the album with his own political views. It is a fact as stated in many interviews with Frank Zappa that he believed AIDS was a race specific bio-weapon engineered by the American government to target black people. In addition he saw both the homo-sexualisation of youth through the mass media, as well as the whole feminist movement as schemes by the government to reduce the population. I believe that whole section should be deleted and started from scratch as the interview with Frank show that he was very serious about the claims he makes in this album, despite the fact that they are set in a humorous tone. This is in fact an album about the eugenics movement which dominates American society to this day. —Preceding unsigned comment added by FOWL (talk • contribs) 02:06, 29 November 2009 (UTC) In fact, that's your opinion regarding what the album is about. FZ did genuinely suspect AIDS was developed in a lab for purposes of eliminating or minimizing 'undesirable tenants in the condominium o' life' but there is probably no mention of 'the Eugenics movement' which has long been deprecated in the US.[reply]

Additional POV aspects of this article: 'increasingly fascistic and feminist' adult Rhonda. "Fascistic" is a meaningful term which FZ did not use for Rhonda, and it doesn't appear to be supported by the supposed citation. The point of the Briefcase Boogie scene is no mystery really, FZ felt that feminists who went into that to be equal to corporate businessmen was absurd. So her way of retaliating to Harry was, among other things, to fuck her briefcase. Also note 'Warner Brothers' files in it. I wouldn't read that much into this, albeit FZ stated more than once he was a '50's kinda guy' and more traditional which is HOWEVER belied by the fact of his treating woman in this band as equals.J Civil 23:19, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Obviously you are remembering the interviews incorrectly, since Frank, being a rock star, could not possibly ever have believed anything that was stupid. Richard K. Carson (talk) 03:42, 9 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Obviously, you've never heard Hed PE's New World Orphans, or Megadeth's Endgame (named for the Alex Jones film). Rock stars do, in fact, believe stupid things. Not saying that Zappa did, but still. --WTF (talk) 03:39, 18 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Plot

The "plot" section should not be told "in universe"...it needs to be rewritten as if it is describing a work of fiction. PurpleChez (talk) 02:36, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's not true that the Thing-Fish/Mammy Nun appearance was caused by the Galoot Cologne. There are 3 distinct substances: 1) chemical made by the prince 2) potatoes 3) cologne (and the mystery resease may be a 4th). The Mammy Nun appearance is caused by mixing 1 & 2. The 1/2 mixture was a test - the 1/3 mixture was used to kill off the fagnits. The Galoot brand of cologne is ostensibly popular on the disco scene. Redkrovvy (talk) 05:37, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Opera

I thought FZ referred to this one as an opera. Am I misremembering? Varlaam (talk) 20:22, 2 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. --WTF (talk) 03:39, 18 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Thing-Fish/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Wizardman (talk · contribs) 17:59, 5 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'll review this article. The very first thing is that the bare URLs need to be fixed and turned into citations. Do that while I look through the article over the next couple days. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 17:59, 5 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I just noticed the main writer was a sockpuppet, so the review's not going to be responded to. Nonetheless, here's some comments:

As noted above, the bare URLs have to be fixed.
"Harry presented a homosexual boy, Rhonda" as a
The prose as a whole isn't too bad, but it does get quote-heavy at times.
The reception section doesn't note much why it wasn't liked originally.
The Google books sources need page numbers, and if they aren't free view then they shouldn't be linked.

The article's not too bad; if an independent non-sockpuppet goes through the article it could become a GA without too much effort. Until then, the article fails. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 16:13, 6 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

John Cale rating

Don't know if this is even relevant, but may be useful for someone.^[1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Patacón (talk • contribs) 18:11, 29 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ http://www.uncut.co.uk/features/john-cale-my-life-in-music-20963

Category

User ApexUnderground (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki) is a sock of Inowen (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki). - DVdm (talk) 09:18, 2 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I have removed the category Homophobia in fiction because it is unsourced, and it has a very ambiguous tone. It is not clear whether the album is homophobic, against homophobia, or just about homophobia, and of course the same goes for the author. The album clearly has homosexuality as one of its (many) themes, but nothing is said about homophobia. Adding the category would be wp:original research. - DVdm (talk) 09:14, 23 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The homophobia in fiction category would specifically refer to the song "He's So Gay," but there is no article yet for that song, so the category would go here. -ApexUnderground (talk) 18:53, 23 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

But there is no way to know whether the song is homophobic, against homophobia, or just about homophobia. Trying to stick categories to things or people can be problematic. To Zappa it does not work. - DVdm (talk) 20:04, 23 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This is clearly a case where the commentary is anti-Gay, or are you saying that there must be a music reviewer or other public comment who says specifically that the song is anti-Gay? The song repeatedly connects the Gay lifestyle to BDSM and paraphilia, and has a mocking tone toward Gays. The idea that these political categories are political labels that are often misused doesn't mean we should not put appropriate categories on some people. -ApexUnderground (talk) 20:44, 23 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

With Zappa, one never knows what is serious and what is not, or what is mockery, satire, cynicism or irony. The song might be anti-gay, or anti-anti-gay, or anti-pretend-gay, or anti-pretend-anti-gay... or anti-whatever. And the album might be anti-something-different. And the author might be anti-yet-something-different. You might think this way. Someone else might think another way. That's why Wikipedia needs reliable sources. And it certainly is why sticking labels to Zappa is hard. If not impossible. - DVdm (talk) 08:41, 24 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I agree that categories are not always perfect or clear. I think the song might not belong in Category:Homophobia, but it is certainly anti-Gay'. I don't think they are the same thing, but the categories on Wikipedia are connected as if they are the same thing. Anti-Gay is not the exact same thing as homophobia, and these labels are completely wrong on Wikipedia.-ApexUnderground (talk) 21:54, 24 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Our mileages may vary. You think it's anti-gay. I think it's anti-something-different. - DVdm (talk) 07:23, 25 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

[1] ttp://www.uncut.co.uk/features/john-cale-my-life-in-music-20963

[1]