Talk:Chutney

Indian chutney vs. British chutney

Does anyone else feel that traditional chutneys from India should be treated separately from British (commonwealth) chutney tradition? Chutney as it is known in the UK at the moment is so far removed from the original Indian preparations that it feels, to me, confusing and unhelpful to lmup them together into one article - having Green Tomato Chutney in the 'types of chutney' feels out of place next to all the Indian chutneys in that list.

Indian chutney - any of a wide range of strongly, idiosyncratically flavoured condiments, wet or dry, pickled or fresh, containing a range of fruits, vegetables, spices or otherwise.

British chutney - primarily a method of preserving, it refers exclusively to pickled preparations, made by boiling fruits or vegetables and seasonings (sometimes some more 'exotic' spices) with vinegar and sugar and reducing to a thick, sticky sweet-sour paste. Always kept in glass jars. Served most often with cheese, but also with ham and other cold meats. Less common to be served with other dishes.

It feels like this article conflates two very different categories of condiment.

Hereward Feldwick (h.feldwick@gmail.com) 12:25, 29 June 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.229.89.105 (talk)

Yup, couldn't agree more. The article needs to be rewritten from a global perspective. India may well be the country of origin but there is a strong British tradition of chutney making which needs detailing. Barry Wom (talk) 09:49, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

I've removed the lead paragraph pointing out that this article is almost uniquely about south Asian chutneys and pretty much ignores the British (and by extension, American and Caribbean) chutneys. I've added the Globalize tag in its place. For reference, the two links that were supplied in support were as follows: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/23/dining/23chutneys.html?_r=1 and http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/food/chutney-born-in-virginia-inspired-by-britain/2011/08/02/gIQARjro4I_story_1.html

So glad to see that other people feel the same way. I suggest the cleavage be between either South Asian and Western chutneys or else Fresh (South Asian) and Cooked (Western) chutneys. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chip Nibbler (talk • contribs) 01:39, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

I second this, but I prefer the distinction to be primarily cultural (S-Asian vs Western), rather than based on preparation methods. Western Chutney and Asian Chatni would be alright in my opinion. Skl (talk) 07:30, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

I don't think the article should be split up if British (and derivative American) chutneys derive from Anglo-Indian cuisine. Nevertheless clear distinctions needs to be drawn between Indian, Anglo-Indian and British-cum-American variants (that stray pretty far from the Indian roots). I suppose you could call chutney one of the first fusion foods. Easy as it may be to poke fun, fusion foods seem destined to even greater importance in the future as we all become more globalized. LADave (talk) 22:03, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

I disagree. Just because it has foreign roots doesn't mean it necessarily has so share the same article, considering the differences between the two varieties. Discussing them separately, in separate articles, is also way easier than having to be constantly on the lookout for unclear distinctions, editorially speaking. Besides, they can always be merged back together, down the road, if deemed appropriate. For now, a separation would, at the very least, improve clarity and also make the subject more search-friendly. Brits looking for "chutney" are looking for something distinctly different from Indians looking for "chatni". Appeals to abstract ideas like relatedness or origin should require practical advantages in order to be taken into consideration, but right now, all they do for this page is muddy the waters. Skl (talk) 07:30, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Reading the History section it really seems like the British imported the chutney in India in 1780, can someone correct? --Suturn (talk) 12:07, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

So, what is chutney?

The current revision of the article is weak failsauce. The current lede notes that chutney is

a condiment ... usually contain[ing] a spice and vegetable mix ... wet or dry ... coarse to fine texture ... fresh [or] pickled ... Vinegar or citrus juice may be added ...

This is simply a list of nonsense opposites with no explanation of the stuff's defining or even typical characteristics. Feldwick's definition above may be accurate, but would need sourcing.

Further, etymologies or history sections implying chutney predates the 16th century would need to explain how it has changed over time, since modern Indian spices were introduced from America during the Columbian exchange. 129.241.157.156 (talk) 23:59, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

It's almost as though you're asking, "Why are there so many different kinds of sauces? Why isn't all sauce the same kind of sauce?". Some Indian chutneys are ground into a smooth paste, some English ones contain chunks of fruit. There are dry, powdered chutneys in addition to the wet types. The article notes that some naming distinctions may be made between fresh chutneys and preserved versions. A cuisine can have many sauces. Whitebox (talk) 15:52, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

I don't think the definition should be approached from an ingredient perspective. Instead I think you need to look at the original function -- adding interest to some fairly bland foods like boiled rice or roti, e.g. in India. Then on how British colonials modified that and eventually took it back to England, and it spread into American cuisine (and perhaps others). By the time it marinates in American cuisine there is little resemblance left to how it started out in India! LADave (talk) 22:12, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

As for the Columbian Exchange, what spices besides chiles originated in the New World? Other than that perhaps a few bulk ingredients in some chutneys have new world origins. Tomatoes would be one. A few are potato-based. Nevertheless it would be pretty easy to come up with chutneys without Columbian ingredients. LADave (talk) 22:19, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

The issue is that the way it's defined now is that it's basically anything. With such a list of opposites it seems like there is no defining characteristic of chutney.--211.215.156.184 (talk) 13:13, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

I've literally logged into my Wikipedia account for the first time in 5 years because I'm so confused by the following statement

In India, "chutney" refers to fresh and pickled preparations indiscriminately.

Does this mean if I take literally anything that is fresh or pickled & prepare it in anyway whatsoever, it is a chutney!?Mrbillstunes (talk) 02:15, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

How is Chutney used? (part two)

The question "how is chutney used?" brought me to this article today and the article did not answer it. I learned from this Talk:page that somebody asked back in August 2010 for more information about how chutney is used.

Given this three-year hiatus, I have done a little research and will edit the article to add a paragraph to try to briefly answer the question. Thank you, Wanderer57 (talk) 04:10, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

A discussion here (Wise geek: What is chutney?) demonstrates clearly in the comments the incredulitiy of Indians when the concept of chutney is explained purely in western terms. Another discussion (Wise geek - What is the difference between relish and chutney?) also has comments by Indians who have never come into contact with western-style chutney containing vinegar, sugar and fruit. RPSM (talk) 21:08, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Andrew Wheeler writing on Chutney

Examples of Indian style chutneys, freshly prepared and finished off with a tempering:

Carrot Chutney

Dahi chutney with chopped fresh coriander leaves

Thirty Easy Chutney Recipes (South Indian cuisine) Eleven of them are based on fresh coconut, which is the understanding in southern India of what a chutney is - perhaps as an accompaniment to idlis or dosa. A Punjabi recipe for mint chutney and other regional recipes are included.

Includes the sentence chutney stays well for few days, if stored in refrigerator. but always better to consume it fresh.

Chutney Varieties: (Chutneys, Thokku, Thuvayal, Pachadi, Podi, Dips, Sauces and Pickles)

A vinegar based product that has nothing to do with chutney uses the same vinegar/sugar combination to have a long shelf life:

Guardian journalists fail to protect their sauces

Here is a definition of chutney that only understands it as similar to a relish:

Preservation principles in chutney

OREGON STATE UNIVERSITY Extension Service Food Safety & Preservation: Fruit Pickles and Chutney

Excellent overview of the two styles of chutney:- 1) the south Indian accompaniment to Idlis and dosa 2) the chutney that the British Raj discovered and recreated with apples and raisins, vinegar and sugar is here (Is same link as above) RPSM (talk) 14:08, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

A discussion on Amazon here has two posts, one defining western-style chutneys:

slw says: Bothell: here is my take on it. Salsa's are usually fresh or at the most lightly cooked. Chutney's are more jamlike with large chunks of whatever the chutney is made of. I make one with Apricots, mangoes and ginger. Cooked down much like a cooked jam and I don't think there are tomatoes in chutney's. At least not the ones I am familiar with. Take all that with a grain of sea salt (HA!) because I am just speaking of a few recipes for both.

and another with a summary of Indian-style chutneys:

Puthra says: Chutney is born in India and the famous one is Mango Chutney, which lasts for a year, due to the high amounts of salts, chilli powder and other seasonings. Summer months people are busy making chutneys due to availability of Mangoes and other vegetables. It is made mostly with uncooked ingredients and is more spicier than a regular curry. There are different types of chutneys made in India depending on the regions, seasons and ingredients available. For breakfasts like Idly(pronounced 'id' as in 'sid' without the sound of 's' - 'lee'), Vada, Dosa, the chutneys made, cannot be preserved for more than a few days (refrigerated).

The most common chutneys of India inlcude... Can be good for over a year... Mango Chutney Tomato Chutney Lemon Chutney Ginger Chutney (Sweet n sour) Vegetable chutney Good for a few days... Groundnut Chutney (used for breakfasts) Coconut Chutney Mint Chutney Spinach Chutney

Here is the recipe for a simple Coconut Chutney... (Goes good with rice) INGREDIENTS: PART 1 Fresh ground coconut - 1 and half cup Turmeric powder - 1/8 tsp Ginger paste - about 1/2 tsp green chilli paste - 1/2 tsp (depending on how much you prefer). I use about 1 n 1/4 tsp lemon juice - 1 tsp salt - 1 tsp PART 2 oil - 1tbsp , cumin seeds - 1/4 tsp, black mustard seeds - 1/4 tsp, curry leaves about 15, dry red chillies - 1 or 2 PROCEDURE: Mix all the ingredients in PART 1 thoroughly. Heat oil in a pan, when the oil is hot, add cumin seeds, mustard seeds. when these start popping, add the dry red chillies, about 30 secs later. Put off the stove and add the curry leaves, popping a lid on the pan...the leaves tend to splatter as soon as they hit the oil, so its better to be careful. when the splattering stops, add this mixture into the chutney and mix well and serve with hot rice.

Here is south Indian style spicy tomato chutney with enormous quantities of chillies and garlic.

RPSM (talk) 03:36, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Link to discussion that covers the subject of Chutneys within South asian cuisine (India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka)

http://forums.egullet.org/topic/101785-chutney-v-pickle-v-relish/

RPSM (talk) 18:16, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

north indian is the spicy. if you need a authentic flovour just add khas khas and a lil cardamom to it with a pinch of cumin powder. Tejas Nagvenkar (talk) 20:09, 14 May 2019 (UTC)

Definition of chutney from Hobson-Jobson

2. CHUTNY : (page 221) CHUTNY , s. H. chatnī. A kind of strong relish, made of a number of condiments and fruits, &c., used in India, and more especially by Mahommedans, and the merits of which are now well known in England. For native chutny recipes, see Herklots, Qanoon-e-Islam, 2nd ed. xlvii. seqq. 1813.-- "The Chatna is sometimes made with cocoa-nut, lime-juice, garlic, and chillies, and with the pickles is placed in deep leaves round the large cover, to the number of 30 or 40."-- Forbes, RPSM (talk) 22:29, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

The article: article Chutney from Encyclopedia of Food and Culture | 2003 | Weaver, William Woys has the following sentence:

The first Indian chutneys to reach the West appeared as luxury imports in England and France during the late 1600s. They were mostly mango chutneys put up in sticky syrups and shipped in ceramic pots.

An editor, due to sloppy careless reading, has understood the information as the following:

The first chutneys in India would have been sticky fruit based preserves. Sugar, although available in India, was not widely cultivated. This led to the chutneys being used as more of a savory dipping sauce rather than a condiment.

The chutneys in India are mostly fresh- tomato, coconut preparations, those based on curd (yoghurt) dahi and raita similar to Greek tzaziki - grated and pounded vegetables etc. The sweet, vinegary preparations are more western style.

The lack of refined sugar in India was not a problem for them. They didn't need sugar. I don't think it led to dipping sauces being used rather than condiments. I am erasing these three sentences. RPSM (talk) 10:46, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Question about chutney:- Why is it recommended nowadays with commercial chutneys that once the jar is opened, the contents should be kept in the fridge and eaten within four weeks? When I was young ...

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2009/aug/01/matthew-fort-chutneys-pans-paprika-sausages RPSM (talk) 16:34, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

Two contrasting chutneys that are popular and well known

http://www.tastyappetite.net/2013/06/how-to-make-green-chutney-sweet-chutney.html RPSM (talk) 15:03, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Dictionary definition of chutneys with web searches already done (quoting phrases containing the word chutney

here

Facts about fermentation, bacteria and the microbiology of chutneys

× Comments for this thread are now closed. 1 Comment Telegraph

Barry Cragg • a month ago A shocking article! This is a piece about using microorganisms to produce pickles and chutneys with interesting flavours. At the end of the piece is a section titled "Bacteria" that is full of errors. One error I could understand as a missed edit by the author after it has gone through the magazine edit, but in this section every sentence is wrong, and/or misleading and, potentially dangerous. This author appears to display a complete ignorance about the very processes that produce her goods which, as they involve bacteria, I find very worrying. I for one, as a qualified microbiologist, would be very wary of consuming any of these products.

Sentence by sentence:

1. Bacteria do not require to be mixed with yeast to initiate fermentation. Both happily ferment on their own. Yeast ferment the sugars glucose and sucrose to alcohol (beer, wine), some bacteria ferment the sugar lactose to lactic acid (yoghurt). They can both be found fermenting together (sour dough) but they don't generally need to mixed together. In any case these two micro-organisms couldn't be more different from each other. Yeasts (taxonomically) belong to the group Eukaryota - that includes humans, bacteria belong to the group Prokaryota - which does not.

2. Neither bacteria nor yeasts produce "mould" if by mould you mean either the blue/green powdery or the cotton-wool type growths sometimes seen on foods. If there is any mould present it is an unwanted contaminant to the bacterial or yeast fermentation process. Contamination is potentially dangerous and its presence suggests something is wrong with your fermentation - best to throw it.

3. Keeping your fermenting items submerged makes no difference. Contaminating moulds will happily grow on the liquid surface. Has no one looked in an old half-used pesto jar that has been in the fridge for a few weeks too long?

4.Bacteria do not become a hazard if they grow to large numbers - if they are the ones that are wanted. Lactobacillus, used to make yoghurt, produces lactic acid that inhibits the growth of other bacteria. So just about the only bacteria present in yoghurt are these Lactobacillus - at many billions of bacteria per teaspoon.

5. Bacteria do not thrive when the enzymes in food break down. Bacteria and yeasts grow by breaking down the sugars (carbohydrates) in their food, not the enzymes (proteins).

6. Sterile conditions will not stop them developing, they love sterile conditions with no other contaminating organisms to stop them growing. I think she means if the organisms are sterilized rather than the conditions in which they are in - poor English.

7. They do not die off (necessarily) at 100C. Bacteria that can produce spores, for example some Bacillus and Clostridium in milk can survive 100C. For yoghurt production milk usually undergoes either a triple- or a single UHT-pasteurisation process to remove these. Standard temperatures to kill bacterial cells are 121C for 15 minutes. Additionally bacteria do not become dormant below freezing. They carry on working, just very slowly. This is why you can get food spoilage in items kept long term in a freezer at -20C.

As I said, shocking article.

Comments are Barry Craig's (not mine) on this article here

RPSM (talk) 14:30, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

Scurvey and lemons

For the connection of scurvy and citrus fruits, see James Lind.

The story of scurvy being cured by lemons or citrus fruit is here - no mention of chutney or pickle.

The History of Scurvy and Vitamin C (Kenneth J. Carpenter) here gives an account of lemon juice used to counteract scurvy, but no chutney or pickle.

Which is why this statement:Diego Álvarez Chanca brought back chili peppers from the Americas. After discovering their medicinal properties, Chanca developed a chutney to administer them. This coincided with the British Royal Navy's use of a lime pickle or chutney to ward off scurvy on journeys to the new world. appears to be fantasy. Why make a chutney or pickle, when the limes or lemons could be loaded into the hold without any processing and simple squeezed to extract their juice?

The researcher who discovered the antiscorbutic properties of limes and lemons was not Diego Álvarez Chanca,and the Royal Navy did no pickling. RPSM (talk) 16:31, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

Ridged gourd

https://nonsensegirl.wordpress.com/2011/09/16/ridge-gourd-harvest/

Mrs. Beeton's Mango Chetney

“Mango Chetney” (124). The recipe, Mrs. Beeton tells us, “was given by a native to an English lady, who had long been resident in India, and who, since her return to her native country, has become quite celebrated amongst her RPSM (talk) 09:33, 27 November 2015 (UTC)friends for the excellence of this Eastern relish

RPSM (talk) 09:33, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

History section - Mostly poorly understood and confused misinformation

Similar in preparation and usage to a pickle, simple spiced chutneys can be dated to 500 BC. Originating in India, this method of preserving food was subsequently adopted by the Romans and later British empires, who then started exporting this to the colonies, Australia and North America. Are we talking about pickles or chutneys? "Simple spiced chutneys can be dated to 500 BC." No evidence for this.

As greater imports of foreign and varied foods increased into northern Europe, chutney fell out of favor. This combined with a greater ability to refrigerate fresh foods and an increasing amount of glasshouses meant chutney and pickle were relegated to military and colonial use. Chutney reappeared in India around the 1780s as a popular appetizer

Chutney fell out of favor. This was sometime pre-1780. Why? Because refrigerators had come into fashion. Oliver Evans and Jacob Perkins invented the refrigerator. Patents were taken out on refrigeration 1834-5. "Chutney reappeared in India around the 1780s as a popular appetizer." Chutney in India varies according to region. It is not one thing.

Diego Álvarez Chanca brought back chili peppers from the Americas. After discovering their medicinal properties, Chanca developed a chutney to administer them. I question this specific use of 'chutney' for what Chanca did with chili peppers. What is the source for this? This coincided with the British Royal Navy's use of a lime pickle or chutney to ward off scurvy on journeys to the new world. Dates for Chanca are 1480 - 1515. The cure for scurvy was known by certain individual traditional healers and herbalists, but it was James Lind's controlled experiment that made the citrus fruit cure general knowledge. Ulrich Tröhler's article on James Lind and scientific method

The Merchant Shipping Act of 1845 made it obligatory to have a supply or lemons or limes on board (not chutney). This was three hundred years later than Vasco da Gama.

In the early 17th century, British colonization of the Indian subcontinent relied on preserved food stuffs such as lime pickles, chutneys and marmalades. (Marmalades proved unpopular due to their sweetness and a lack of available sugar.) Colonialism depended on marmalade

Beginning in the 17th century, fruit chutneys were shipped to European countries like England and France as luxury goods. These imitations were called "mangoed" fruits or vegetables, the word 'chutney' still being associated with the lower working classes. Early recipes for "mangoes" use gherkins and melons (Compleat Housewife) but exports from India to Enland of mangoes in sugar syrup were the real thing.

Major Grey's Chutney is thought to have been developed by a British officer who had traveled to India. The formula was eventually sold to Crosse and Blackwell, a major British food manufacturer, probably in the early 1800s.[21] In the 19th century, types of chutney like Major Grey's or Bengal Club created for Western tastes were shipped to Europe from Monya. Monya is in Liberia, Africa

Generally these chutneys are fruit, vinegar, and sugar cooked down to a reduction.

The tradition of chutney-making spread through the English-speaking world, especially in the Caribbean and American South, where chutney is a popular condiment for ham, pork, and fish. RPSM (talk) 11:51, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Chutney ferrets

One aspect of the cultural impact of this side dish - not mentioned thus far - is the use of the derogatory term "chutney ferret" to mean "homosexual man".

Presumably it is meant to evoke the image of a man's penis rapidly disappearing into another man's rectum, much as a hungry ferret would eagerly bury its head into a jar of chutney. 94.196.225.233 (talk) 18:02, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

Major Grey Chutney in the UK

This chutney is - to all intents and purposes - unavailable in the UK. None of the major supermarkets stock it (Tesco, Sainsburys, Waitrose, Asda). The only brand available for sale at amazon.co.uk is from "The Virginia Chutney Company" - an American brand.

I'm sure it's possible to find it in some specialist food stores, but the important point is that it is certainly not by any means "popular in the United Kingdom". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Barry Wom (talk • contribs) 16:27, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

An issue with the section “See Also“

I was able to alphabetize parts of the section, but it is not a very useful section, really no new information in it. I think it needs to be re-edited, but I can’t edit it myself.

Very general information, not really related to the article, somewhat repetitive, needs work. BiliousBob (talk) 12:43, 10 June 2021 (UTC)