Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Belarus mental hospital fire
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This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record.
The result of the debate was KEEP
del(vote changed, below). A non-notable fire. Every second there is a fire around the globe. Mikkalai 19:44, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)- Keep Yet another sad entry in the histroy of abuse and maltreatment of mental patients Klonimus 19:49, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Abuse, maltreatment? A bit of overstretch, I'd say. Knowing things a bit, I'd say Soviet and post-Soviet carelessness, which pervaded the whole life, mentals being but a tiny segment. Mikkalai 22:07, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Delete, let's not start a precedent. This could have been a Wikinews article at the time, but it's non-notable as an encyclopedia article. RickK 22:04, Apr 2, 2005 (UTC)
- It's as notable Fernald School Experiments or Titicut Follies Klonimus 07:45, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Article has been merged with Alexander Lukashenko. 63.173.114.141 01:09, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Rolled back. Relevance. Mikkalai 05:18, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Keep. I think that 30 people died make it much more notable than the average fire. (E.g. average fires don't get press coverage from AP). If this had happened in your home state rather than Belarus, it may seem more notable to you, so let's try to keep an objective head about this. Pcb21| Pete 10:36, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- It is notable as news, but not as encyclopedic entry. Every day TV reports something horrible happening around the world. This is life. And saying that death of two persons is less notable than death of 30 may sound very antihumane to many, especially those who work on Terry Schiavo article. We have an article about her, but not about thousands of other on coma. Why? Notability of the case, not the very fact of death. Belarussian deaths, sad as they were, teach nothing and lead to nothing. Mikkalai 18:36, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- From an objective perspective, The Station nightclub fire and Belarus mental hospital fire have the same degree of notability. However as we have seen time and time again, VfD nominators and voters do not act objectively. They act on gut instincts about notability, and their gut instincts are far too often too provincial, which is why this is on vfd and the nightclub fire never has been. Pcb21| Pete 19:29, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- You have your point here. Provinciality speaks. But against your argument is the fact that neither Russian nor Belarussian wikipedias cover the event, despite being of local notability. Mikkalai 21:50, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Separately, it is very unlikely that these deaths will teach nothing and lead to nothing. It is almost certain that safety and construction procedures will change as a result of this incident, just as they will because of the Chicago. The fact that you think the deaths will lead to nothing (because from your perspective, they will lead to nothing) is an example of the bias we should be trying to get rid of on VfD. Pcb21| Pete 19:29, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I don't think. I don't see. If you see consequences, please write. Mikkalai 21:50, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- From an objective perspective, The Station nightclub fire and Belarus mental hospital fire have the same degree of notability. However as we have seen time and time again, VfD nominators and voters do not act objectively. They act on gut instincts about notability, and their gut instincts are far too often too provincial, which is why this is on vfd and the nightclub fire never has been. Pcb21| Pete 19:29, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- It is notable as news, but not as encyclopedic entry. Every day TV reports something horrible happening around the world. This is life. And saying that death of two persons is less notable than death of 30 may sound very antihumane to many, especially those who work on Terry Schiavo article. We have an article about her, but not about thousands of other on coma. Why? Notability of the case, not the very fact of death. Belarussian deaths, sad as they were, teach nothing and lead to nothing. Mikkalai 18:36, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Keep, persuaded by Pete, above. Kappa 21:41, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Keep, notable as an example of decay of Lukashenko's Belarus. Grue 07:32, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Delete, might belong in wikinews, but not here. Radiant_* 12:27, Apr 4, 2005 (UTC)- I have renamed and restructured the content of this article to make it more Wikipedia and less Wikinews. Delete votes above this comment should be considered with this in mind. Pcb21| Pete 07:50, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Very well. Abstain for now; do we want articles on individual hospitals? And if so, what about fire stations? Shopping malls? Convenience stores? (intended as open question) Radiant_* 11:03, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC)
- We probably don't have to answer questions about 7/11s in order to determine the inclusion of this article. Even the most hardcore deletionist would include notable such institutions. I don't think anyone is going to deny the notability of an institution that was in newspapers around the world. Pcb21| Pete 11:24, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- keep the renamed artcile. A good idea I should have thought myself. Now at least the article is about a thing and has a potential of expansion. Mikkalai 18:21, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- The title and order have been changed but without quite a bit more to say, this is still a WikiNews story, not an encyclopedia article. It was in the news but only because of the fire. The case has not yet resulted in safety or construction regulations. If it does lead to verifiable change, we can recreate the article then. In the meantime, transwiki to the Wikinews archive. Rossami (talk) 03:38, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Oh come on, don't be ridiculous, you talk as if having this verifiable, notable information around is damaging to the encyclopedia. Pcb21| Pete 07:06, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Comment: Is the topic (which is now the hospital, not the fire) significant enough that it will attract the critical mass of knowledgable reader/editors to keep the article safe from subtle vandalism? Can the article ever be expanded past this sub-stub stage in a way that will also be verifiable? If not, then the article increases the maintenance load on our population without adding enough value to the encyclopedia. That is, of course, a value judgement but I think a reasonable one. Rossami (talk) 14:59, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I think this contains some incorrect reasoning - see User:Pcb21#Unpopular_articles_-_negative_value?. Pcb21| Pete 16:10, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Comment: Is the topic (which is now the hospital, not the fire) significant enough that it will attract the critical mass of knowledgable reader/editors to keep the article safe from subtle vandalism? Can the article ever be expanded past this sub-stub stage in a way that will also be verifiable? If not, then the article increases the maintenance load on our population without adding enough value to the encyclopedia. That is, of course, a value judgement but I think a reasonable one. Rossami (talk) 14:59, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Oh come on, don't be ridiculous, you talk as if having this verifiable, notable information around is damaging to the encyclopedia. Pcb21| Pete 07:06, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Keep, though needs some expansion and a mention in Alexander Lukashenko wouldn't go amiss -- Lochaber 17:11, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.