Talk:Prison education

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from Vfd

On 14 Mar 2005, this article was nominated for deletion. The result was keep. See Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Prison education for a record of the discussion. —Korath (Talk) 01:07, Mar 20, 2005 (UTC)

The United States is not the world (sorry to have to break this news to you)

Need heading : Prisoner education in the United States

What we actually need is to include statistics from the rest of the world, but yes, you are correct in that this article focuses on the US. I've added a tag accordingly which I hope to remove once the issue is addressed. Freikorp (talk) 02:18, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

Done. Freikorp (talk) 13:10, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

@Freikorp: Hats off to you on tackling a difficult subject. I'm still a little concerned about the scope of the article; though you've done a lot of expansion, the history section is still confined to the "west", and the only country mentioned in the lead is the US, which strikes me as odd. I recognize the limitations of the source material, but surely some phrasing and structural changes can be made to address this? Regards, Vanamonde (talk) 07:44, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

Hi Vanamonde93. Thanks for your comments; it's nice to see someone else take an interest in this article. I've currently got the article nominated for peer review looking for comments on what I need to do before (hopefully one day) nominating it for FAC. If you'd care to give it a peer review I'd be very grateful.

As for the history section, I'm sure I could expand it at least somewhat if I did some serious digging for sources, but it very much seems like only western sources have written about the history of prison education, and even some western sources don't appear to have coverage on the issue. I actually did some serious digging for the history of prison education in my native Australia however I couldn't find a single source explicitly about it; I only made a moderate search at best for other countries, but still, what I found is all in the article already. The fact remains that third world countries are much less likely to even have prison education at all, much less have someone interested in writing about the history of the subject, and of course if someone has written on it it's much less likely to be available in English. This issue got brought up at the GA nomination as well; I can assure you I haven't deliberately only given coverage to western sources. I'm open to expanding the lead to contain more than just the US example, the reason I included that is because it was the only source that put an exact dollar figure on the benefits. Freikorp (talk) 09:36, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

@Freikorp: To be quite honest the topic is outside my area of expertise; I came here while checking Wikicup contributions. I understand your point, and I am not suggesting that limitations of the source material mean that the article cannot meet a certain quality threshold. I do think, though, that another example in the lead might be helpful, and if any of the sources mention where this subject has received attention, that would be useful, too. Vanamonde (talk) 09:44, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

Reduction in Recidivism

"Skeptics claim that, in many cases, prison education produces nothing more than "better educated criminals". Its good to show both sides to an argument, but you're citing a creationist 'doctor' with a degree from an unaccredited diploma mill. RioDevez (talk) 20:14, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

Additional info

Collapsed below is info I either collected in preparation for writing the article that didn't quite fit in anywhere, or info I removed for the same reason. Freikorp (talk) 06:35, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

Extended content

Generic info The source by Wagdy Sawahel comments on the fact some universities are changing the way there courses are offered to address the fact that inmates cannot access the internet. "Commitment to education is one factor in being favourably considered for parole and so: education has become the ticket to individual escape. Therefore education is used as an instrument of control and: ‘prisoners jump through the required hoops because life is more bearable for them if they do so." "Parsons and Langenbach (1993), who conducted experiments in prisons in the USA discovered: ‘that inmates, with some exceptions, have the same orientations toward participating in educational activities as the general public’". "A major criticism of external courses in the prison is the high dropout rate among inmates. However, it would be interesting to compare this with the dropout rate among the population outside prisons. Also, the fact that an inmate does not complete the course does not necessarily infer that no benefit has been gained." "Clearly, there is a chronic, yet urgent need to improve programme participation in prisons so that individuals leave prison with a skill base that can improve their chances of successful employment after release. Policy and programme reform is also urgently needed to reduce waiting lists for courses and to increase resources to provide vocational training and education." "Ex-prisoners generally have poor work histories and are typically employed in low-wage jobs with few tangible rewards. There are numerous identified barriers to employment that may affect ex-prisoners. These include a lack of personal and work-related skills; educational disadvantage/low literacy levels; unfavourable employer attitudes; racism on the part of employers; lack of local work opportunities; lack of job contacts because of segregated social networks; financial difficulties affecting interview/job; problems making the transition from benefits to employment; behavioural problems; lack of basic skills and/or poor qualifications; low self-esteem, confidence and motivation; absent or poor work experience history; and difficulty adjusting to the routine of work". "The functions of education in prison ... mean different things to different people. The penal reformer may see it as a means of ‘soft-ening’ a harsh regime, Prison Service staff may see it as a means of keeping prisoners occupied, security staff in a prison may see it as a risk, prison education staff may see it as a vocation, whilst for many prisoners, it can be one of the strategies adopted simply ‘to pass the time’." Countries that provide meaningful education programs for inmates typically provide less oppurtunities for female prisoners. Oceania info A journalist visiting Bathurst Gaol in 1882 commented that the prison school was "a wretched farce; it is held in the corridor, two hours a day". A prisoner did most of the teaching, and the schoolmaster, who was the most highly paid member of prison staff, was reading a novel. The journalist concluded it was "about the biggest farce I have seen, at all events it does no earthly good". George Franlkin Smith, a prison reformer and governor of Goulburn Gaol from 1928 to 1938, "brought local school teachers from Goulburn High School into the prisons in the early evening to teach in Economics, Mathematics, French and Chemistry to long-sentence prisoners, thus going well beyond the more ususal or characteristic industrial training approach found in New South Wales prisons." His program "gained great acclaim, some at an international level. Goulburn Reformatory, in the 1930s, was seen as being the cutting edge." In 1972-74, inmates at HM Prison Pentridge had access to "vocational education up through the secondary school certificate level and post secondary courses. This is done primarily through correspondence courses with a small number of teachers available for assistance and guidance. Social education, adult basic education and various cultural and leisure time activities round out prison education programs in Victoria." Out of about 900 inmates, there were 223 students in 1972, 180 in 1973 and 280 in 1974. Tertiary enrollment numbers for those three years were 14, 13 and 16 respectively. These numbers may include duplicate enrollments by the same student entering multiple programs. English as a second language is also taught by the federally funded Migrant English Program. In 1991 in New South Wales, there were 164 teachers being employed on a casual or part-time basis in prisons, at a total cost of $954,990, which works out at $719 per inmate. In 2012, the University of Southern Queensland (USQ) began offering distance education courses specifically for inmates, and by 2017 was offering courses to inmates at 30 prisons across 4 states. As a direct result, the amount of prisoners in Queensland participating in university level education rose from 3.1% in 2012 to 6.2% in 2015. The progression rate for inmates participating in USQ courses was higher than the rate for non-inmate students. Queensland re-opened the decommissioned Borallon Correctional Centre in 2016, turning it into the state's first prison where education was mandatory. In Australia, certain education programs are provided free or charge to Aboriginal inmates only, and this perceived inequality has led to increased racial tension within the prison. Allegations that some Aboriginal and migrant prisoners have been denied access to education by prison staff due to racial discrimination have also been made. North American info Pages 4 to 6 of How Effective Is Correctional Education, and Where Do We Go from Here? The Results of a Comprehensive Evaluation gives a pretty detailed history of prison education in the US. I haven't expanded the section much, however, as I believe the current summary is adequate and further detail will give undue weight to the US, when other countries are more in need of expansion. In 1932, steps were undertaken to reorganise the education of prisoners in New York. As a result of institutional surveys at Sing Sing and Clinton prisons "the department hopes hereafter to meet the educational needs of the prisoners". "Vocational training courses have been organized under the direction of a special committee ... to teach the inmates plumbing, steamfitting, painting, carpentering, baking, electricity, automobile mechanics, stenography and bookkeeping". Columbia University was also arranging for correspondence courses to be available at the expense of inmates and their families. As of 2013, it is estimated that 30% of the Philidelphia prison population reads at a second or third grade level. In 2017, New York state announced they would spend $7.3 million from bank settlements to expand college education programs in prisons. Europe info Detailed history of prison education in England (though current info in article is already more than enough). The small size of prisons in Iceland, while having many advantages, makes running organised educational programs difficult, as the small number of inmates may have drastically different educational needs. The Weimar Republic experimented with prison education, with a focus on developing independence and self-governance. In 2001, the Swedish budget for prison education was €7.2 million, and in 2003 the Norwegian budget for prison education was €12.2 million and the budget for Iceland (where there are on average 108 prisoners) was €175,000. Vocational education is most popular with inmates in Poland, due to its higher chance of leading to employment. It is also most popular in Nordic countries, according to a 2009 study. There are few official sources documenting educational provision [to paramilitary prisoners in Northern Ireland]. "Within the Maze prison, political prisoners were segregated according to their paramilitary allegiances ... Education was wing-based, conducted by tutors visiting individual prisoners, with a full curricular menu on offer, ranging from ‘Adult basic education to Open University Studies" (plus ‘O’ levels or ‘A’ levels and correspondence courses). Inmates were reluctant to take part in any in-house education offered by the prison, believing that education staff may be acting as spies. The Ulster Voluntary Force (UVF) claim that 60% to 70% of incarcerated members participated in a form of education, while Republican sources indicate a rate of about 95%. Theses figures are unsubstantiated and must be considered with caution. "It is possible to infer, that the remarkable participation rate is achieved by means of the curriculum and pedagogy employed and the regime developed." "Both Republicans and Loyalists elected an education officer to negotiate with the authorities, allowing them a stake in the educational provision. Drawn from the ranks of the inmates, it would be still be possible to appoint or elect student representatives from the current prison population who could promote education within the jail. Overall decision making would still be vested in a paid official but by having student representation it may be possible to widen participation and involve many who do not currently engage in educational activities. Such student representation has been trialled successfully in Canadian prisons." "A compulsory component of education was also common to both factions at this particular time. Making classes obligatory was initially unpopular, though 'when we stopped compulsory training we found most people continued with it anyhow’. The contemporary [prison education] model relies on self-selection where inmates nominate themselves for a particular class, to take place over a pre-determined time period. Without much difficulty, it would be possible to arrange short taster sessions where inmates could join in classes without making a firm commitment to attend. "‘Individual prisoners are not ‘‘isolated learners’’. Social conditions prevail within a prison classroom, just as they do elsewhere ... Most accounts of learning in prison during the paramilitary regime, stress the value of debate and discussion among peers. The bond of solidarity was obviously strong amongst comrades who considered themselves prisoners of war, struggling for the same cause. However, all inmates share similar experiences of incarceration and efforts should be made to facilitate study groups and debates among prisoners currently engaged on the same course and following the same syllabus." 2018 Update on prison education for paramilitary prisoners in Northern Ireland: In 1934, only 0.7% of Gulag prisoners had higher education. 39.1% had primary education. 42.6% were "semi-literate"; 12% were literate. In 1938, 1.1% had higher education, over half had primary and a third were literate. [Page number unknown; need to purchase book] Africa Prisoners in Nigeria are not given any formal educational awareness regarding AIDS. They are also forbidden from receiving media, such as newspapers, or accessing radio or television, meaning they are unlikely to receive any informal information about the epidemic either. Asia This seems like the most comprehensive source for the history of prison education in Japan, though it's fairly expansive:

Some more sources, HLHJ (talk) 04:49, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

• RAND reports
  • "How Effective Is Correctional Education, and Where Do We Go from Here? The Results of a Comprehensive Evaluation" (PDF).

• Steele, Jennifer L.; Bozick, Robert; Davis, Lois M. (26 April 2016). "Education for Incarcerated Juveniles: A Meta-Analysis". Journal of Education for Students Placed at Risk (JESPAR). 21 (2): 65–89. doi:10.1080/10824669.2015.1133308.

• Bozick, Robert; Steele, Jennifer; Davis, Lois; Turner, Susan (24 May 2018). "Does providing inmates with education improve postrelease outcomes? A meta-analysis of correctional education programs in the United States". Journal of Experimental Criminology. 14 (3): 389–428. doi:10.1007/s11292-018-9334-6.
• Discussion of the research field, describes useful sources: "Experimental Criminology - Criminology - Oxford Bibliographies - obo".

Placing strikes through sources I've read entirely and have integrated into the article. Damien Linnane (talk) 11:04, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

Trial types

Copied from Wikipedia:WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors/Requests

In preparation for FAC. Thanks. Freikorp (talk) 02:16, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

I did an edit of phrasing and paragraphs, and was more specific about the type of studies done. Feel free to change phrasing back if I've expressed something badly. If you wanted an edit of something else, please specify here. HLHJ (talk) 04:41, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for your interest HLHJ. I did really like your copyedits to the lead. I liked some of the paragraph breaks you put in but in some areas where this made several single sentence paragraphs in a row I thought it was starting to look like too much of a bullet-point list than actual prose. I've reverted this and I think I'll wait to see if anyone at FAC thinks this is appropriate. I did change one or two phrasings back but most of it I liked, though your addition about randomized controlled trials not appearing to exist certainly isn't going to help at FAC due to it being unsourced, so that's been removed also. I did want to confirm one thing: you clarified that tests on recidivism and self-serving bias was checked for "with paired difference tests in observational studies". Are you sure the source says that? I couldn't find those terms while searching the documents text and I don't really have the time to read the entire 95 page document trying to find it. Thanks. Freikorp (talk) 22:56, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

The Chappelle source would certainly have mentioned randomized controlled trials had they existed, as it has a section (Subset four, page 71/72) on trials that attempt de-confounding of confounding factors. A randomized controlled trial would be the strongest type of evidence of this sort, so it certainly would have been included there. How about "2004/2005 reviews list no randomized controlled trials...", with the reviews as refs? It would be nice to have something more up-to-date, but I assumed you've looked.

The terms "self-selection bias", "paired difference test" and "observational study" are not used in those docs, as best as I can recall; they are my own unoriginal words for what the documents describe. Self-selection bias is when the subjects select themselves in a biassed way (for instance, inmates with good attitudes take education courses). The lower strength of effect in the studies attempting to take into account confounding factors suggests, as Chappelle says, that this effect exists, which is sort of unsurprising, as it's hard to believe that prisoners make educational decisions without being influenced at all by anything measurable in their backgrounds.

An observational study is one where no experimental intervention is undertaken. The trials cited for the it's-not-just-pre-existing-attitude statement did not take a group of inmates, randomly select half of them to get education, leave the rest without education, and see what difference it made. That would have been a randomized controlled trial. They didn't mess with education provision at all, just looked at what would have happened anyway (which makes them observational). They surveyed a bunch of inmates, asked them lots of questions about lots of things that might relate to recidivism rates, and found that education had an effect that was independent of the other ones, if I got the gist right. Then there is the question of how they did this analysis.

Quotes "These control groups were chosen on criteria deemed relevant to selection of, and participation in PSCE programs."(Chappelle) and "Recent studies have tried to account for this effect by comparing individuals who participated in educational programming while in prison with those of similar background and motivation levels who did not." (Erisman and Contardo, p.9, Chapter 2). So I got the impression that they were finding pairs or paired groups of prisoners who are very similar in everything except their exposure to prison education, and then looking at the difference in outcomes. This would be a paired difference test. I guess they could have done a principal components analysis or something instead, but that is not what they describe. These are reviews, one of them clearly aimed at policymakers, and don't give many details on their statistical methods; one could dig up the original studies to check.

This bit could be rephrased without any of the statistical terminology, but that would reduce the ability to wikilink to similar concepts. I'm actually sort of appalled that there are no randomized controlled trials; if there are prisons where education is not provided due to lack of funding, a trial that funded education for a randomized half of a group of prisoners would be a net improvement in prisoner welfare and would thus probably pass an ethics review. And that would give really solid evidence, and we would know. It's plain bizarre that there are no such studies of such an important topic. HLHJ (talk) 01:37, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

Hi again HLHJ. Thanks so much for your interest and detailed response. That's very helpful to know. I for one am definitely happy to keep those terms in the article now. Based on what you've explained I wouldn't be opposed to saying something like 'However, attempts to control for such variables in [Study X] with paired difference tests in observational studies have found that the effect persists, though the study did not use randomized controlled trials', however I don't feel the need to go out of my way to clarify that to the reader myself since their absence has not actually been commented on.

I can understand you're appalled that they've never done a study like that (to the best of my knowledge at least, though I will admit I'm not good at interpreting the ins and outs of statistical testing). My motivation for writing this article is how appalled I am with the prison-industrial complex's lackluster attitude to education and rehabilitation in spite of the known benefits. I could go on a rant but I won't.

In regards to your comments at GOCE regarding single sentence paragraphs: Ideally there would be a few sentences on each European country, but what we've got is pretty much everything I've found after a considerable search. Not a lot of people have written about the history of prison education. I find snippets here and there and I've tried to build a paragraph out of it.

This article is currently at peer review, where it unfortunately has received no comments in over 6 weeks. Don't feel obligated as you've certainly helped more than anyone else so far but any further comments you would like to make there (or here) would be appreciated. Freikorp (talk) 04:31, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

Archive of discussion from GOCE Requests Page

I did an edit of phrasing and paragraphs, and was more specific about the type of studies done. Feel free to change phrasing back if I've expressed something badly. If you wanted an edit of something else, please specify here. HLHJ (talk) 04:41, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for your interest HLHJ. I did really like your copyedits to the lead. I liked some of the paragraph breaks you put in but in some areas where this made several single sentence paragraphs in a row I thought it was starting to look like too much of a bullet-point list than actual prose. I've reverted this and I think I'll wait to see if anyone at FAC thinks this is appropriate. I did change one or two phrasings back but most of it I liked, though your addition about randomized controlled trials not appearing to exist certainly isn't going to help at FAC due to it being unsourced, so that's been removed also. I did want to confirm one thing: you clarified that tests on recidivism and self-serving bias was checked for "with paired difference tests in observational studies". Are you sure the source says that? I couldn't find those terms while searching the documents text and I don't really have the time to read the entire 95 page document trying to find it. Thanks. Freikorp (talk) 22:56, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

I didn't really like the single-sentence paras either. I was thinking ideally there'd be a few sentences on each country, each in its own para. At the moment some paras are slightly unreadable stats lists; they might even be better as tables. Thank you for going over my edits critically; knowing that there'll be a second pair of eyes makes me more willing to be bold.

My answer on the stats-related questions got too large for this page, so I put it on Talk:Prison education#Trial types. HLHJ (talk) 01:41, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

If someone else could take a quick look at this and decide whether any further work needs doing that would be appreciated. If you think it's good enough as is, feel free to close. Cheers. Freikorp (talk) 08:51, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

Images

Yo Freikorp, I started a commons category at c:Category:Prison education and added a few pretty good quality images from the DoJ, in case there are places you can use them. I'll look for more public domain images later today and see what I can find. GMG^talk 10:56, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

@GreenMeansGo: That's awesome, thanks heaps. :) Freikorp (talk) 11:02, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

Okay Freikorp, you should have plenty to choose from now. Unfortunately it's basically all from the US, but them's the breaks as far as public domain government works goes. GMG^talk 13:55, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

@GreenMeansGo: Thanks again; very helpful. FYI though 'CDCR firefighter education 1.jpg' and 'CDCR firefighter education 19.jpg' appear to be the same image. Freikorp (talk) 14:01, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

Ah. Good catch. Nominated 19 for speedy. GMG^talk 14:04, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

Following up

Alright, well Freikorp, how do you reckon we ought to prioritize the feedback from the FAC? The high points I'm seeing are Africa, Central America, South America, Middle East, military prisons, and global perspective in the opposition section. Any particular one of those you want to try to tackle first? GMG^talk 12:08, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

I think Africa has been sufficiently covered, at least in terms of consistency with coverage on other continents. I tracked down the book chapter on prisons in the Middle East that was suggested at FAC but while it did have useful information, there was nothing substantial on the History of prison education there. My next step was definitely going to be picking one of the remaining topics you listed above and trying to write a sub-section on it for the History section. A university assignment is taking priority at the moment, but it's definitely on my to-do list. :) Freikorp (talk) 23:50, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

Oh, and I did expand the opposition section since the issue was raised. I'm not convinced it needs any further work. I mean, how many examples of 'left-wing person suggests more prison education and right-wing person throws a tantrum in response' do we need? :) Freikorp (talk) 07:01, 25 July 2018 (UTC)

@GreenMeansGo: In addition to expanding the opposition and Africa sections, I've now also created a sub-section on South America. It could use some fleshing out but it's a good start. Central America is considered part of North America, so any information found on that area should be merged into North America; we have enough sub-sections as is. So from here is looks like just the Middle-east and Military prison to go. Also just a reminder the second peer review is open. This is Freikorp btw. :) Damien Linnane (talk) 05:36, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

Sure thing. I'll look Monday or Tuesday and see what I can add to what you've already got. Maybe when we get to a place when we feel confident we can start pinging some FAC reviewers one-by-one and see what they think and how we can address any remaining concerns they might have. GMG^talk 22:37, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

• International Institute for Asian Studies, Education for women prisoners in Egypt in the 1940s included the teaching of housekeeping and embroidery. GMG^talk 13:05, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
• Human Rights Watch Only 0.5% of inmates in Egypt were enrolled in secondary educational programs. GMG^talk 15:41, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for finding these! I've integrated information from the second source into the article. To tighten the prose I aggregated stats on secondary education and university education together. I can't really think of a place to put the information about women in the 1940s at this stage; might have to save that one for a future sub-section on the middle east. :) Damien Linnane (talk) 01:37, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

Human Rights Watch actually has whole series of these books. See here: [1]. It's definitely enough info to keep me busy for a while! :) Damien Linnane (talk) 03:15, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

Their book on Czechoslovakia basically just says in 1989 they only had basic literacy and nothing else. Juveniles only had access to basic schooling as well, though practical difficulties in them completing study are discussed. No background history information is given. This information is obviously outdated and as there is not enough info for a history paragraph on Czechoslovakia I don't see where I can put this info for the time being other than here. Schwartz, herman (1989). Prison Conditions in Czechoslovakia. Human Rights Watch. pp. 41, 129. ISBN 978-0929692104.

Strangely enough their books on Japan, Zaire, Jamaica and the Soviet Union don't appear to cover the topic education at all. [2] [3] [4] [5]

Their book on Poland (1988) says that education opportunities are "negligible". "One study found that 72% of inmates did not participate in any educational or cultural activities and only 15% participated actively." As we have more recent data from Poland I don't see this info as particularly useful at this time. [6] Pages 29 and 31.

I've added some brief history from their book on Spain.

As of 1990, only the "most basic level" of education was available to inmates in Puerto Rico. According to a 1993 report, prisoners in Romania could acquire at least "minimum" levels of education. Unfortunately the sources doesn't go into any more detail than that. [7].

Their 1991 book on India briefly comments on the complete lack of education for women at one prison. [8]

Mexican prisons are, by legislation, required to rehabilitate inmates through work and education. Despite this, there is very little work or education. Inspectors saw classrooms at most prisons, but few of them were being used. Page 29. [9]

Their book on Israel provides good information about prison educaiton there in 1989. No coverage of history though. [10]

That appears to be all the Human Rights Watch books that are available on Google books covered. I'm done. :) Damien Linnane (talk) 10:02, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

• I do wonder whether the last paragraph under opposition isn't getting into UNDUE territory, and I wonder if we couldn't look to condense that entire paragraph into a single sentence. Like (just spit balling) "...often met with opposition from rival parties, such as occurred with the Republican Party opposition to reforms in New York state in 2014, and by the Liberal Party in Queensland in 2016." GMG^talk 14:25, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

• I'm not opposed to shortening the information, though I do think it is of interest that opposition was so strong a bill to reduce existing prison education was created. Damien Linnane (talk) 02:36, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

• So, we've got a tag indicating the article should be written in British English...but the article doesn't seem to be written in British English. For example, 86 uses of "programs" and seven uses of "programmes". So change the tag to conform to the article and clean up the left-overs, or keep the tag and bring the article into conformity? GMG^talk 12:25, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

• Personally I do prefer British English over American as its considerably closer to Australian English which is obviously what I write in be default. I constantly forget to 'Americanise' my spelling on articles that are supposed to be written in American English, so someone will have to copyedit after we're finished if we do switch to American spelling. Incidentally in Australian English both Program and Programme are acceptable, while 'Programme' appears to simply be the "preferred" spelling according to this source: [11]. Obviously an article should pick one method of spelling and stick with it though so I'll go switch those seven back to 'Program'. Damien Linnane (talk) 08:57, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

I'm fine with whatever variety we use. Like your issue but opposite, I'm not familiar enough with the subtleties of Australian English to make it work. Works for me, but you'll have to be the one to do a total read over and make sure our usage is consistent. GMG^talk 13:37, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

I think the rules on consistent style are mainly to stop edit wars over spelling variants. I've not read anything which would suggest that Wikipedia would require an Australian to write in UK or US English, but possibly I have missed something? It seems silly to waste time on spelling variants; everyone except some Americans gets exposed to these (the US publishing industry seriously translates books and even TV shows from other dialects of English, IMO an unwarranted insult to the intelligence of Americans, but it happens in any large market). HLHJ (talk) 04:10, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

All the guidelines can be found at WP:ENGVAR, basically we just have to pick one version of English and stick with it. I don't think it's important in any case. Worse case scenario FAC reviewers mention things we need to change and we can change it then. :) Damien Linnane (talk) 04:51, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

• Also I just uploaded a whole mess of photos and created a sub-category at c:Category:Prison conservation programes in case there's a good spot for any of them. Some of them are quite good quality. GMG^talk 13:51, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

• @GreenMeansGo: Thanks for uploading these photos, they're very interesting. I think the caption you've given to the one you added to the page is far too long though. For starters the I think the final sentence is overdetailed, and what's left could probably be summarised better. Also at previous FACs of mine people have complained about images being in sections that don't have anything to do with the image. I can see that happening in this case, but its not bothering me personally so happy to leave it in there for now. Damien Linnane (talk) 13:23, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

Well, as far as relevance goes, I was looking at it as a type of different approach to "benefits". So this BLM program may have long term benefits as far as recidivism and employability, but it also has a short term direct benefit of providing a low-cost semi-skilled work force for the conservation program. Feel free to tweak the caption however you see fit. Not gonna hurt my feelings any. GMG^talk 13:37, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

• Having read an awful lot of sources to write this article, I can attest that not many sources comment specifically on prison education programs for women. One can assume that many generic sources are referring to education for both sexes. However I'm seeing a reoccurring theme that women have less access to education than men do. Page 37 of this book [12] briefly states that this is the case worldwide. Something we can use later if we cover this issue in more detail. Surprisingly though women appear to have better access to education than men in Brazil: [13] Page 140. Damien Linnane (talk) 09:11, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

We probably want to be mindful of length though. We're right at about 100k in size, so we may want to keep a look out for sections that could be spun off into stand alone GAs, apart from the main. GMG^talk 13:37, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

While 25% of world prisoners are US prisoners, 33% of women prisoners are US women, so prison education programs for women will extensively include US women's prison education even more so than men prisoners. Shushugah (he/him • talk) 10:44, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

Hi Shushugah. Sorry for the late reply here. How do you suggest we approach prison education for women, especially considering the article's size as noted by GreenMeansGo, and the fact that many sources commenting on prison education don't differentiate between education for male and female inmates? There are probably enough sources to build a sub-sub section for education in women's prisons in the US, but I'm thinking this will just highlight that other countries don't have one (and can't due to a lack of sources.) Let me know if you have any other comments as well. I was about to nominate this for FAC now but thought I'd check in with both of you to see if you have any comments or suggestions first. If not I'll nominate it in a couple days. Damien Linnane (talk) 09:38, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

I’d generally leave it as is, pending some extensive studies on their differences. We can always add additional info inside Incarceration of women as well. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 10:47, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

• @Damien Linnane: Apologies again that I'm not super helpful right now. I've been out of town travelling almost constantly with the COVID relief effort. GMG^talk 22:13, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

No worries GreenMeansGo, that's completely understandable. Sounds like you're doing great things. I've nominated the article for FAC: see here. If you find time to comment on the nomination obviously I'll appreciate it, but don't feel any pressure to do so. Damien Linnane (talk) 23:03, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

Hi again GreenMeansGo. Just letting you know the FAC has moved down to the 'older nominations' list. While support has been unanimous from the three commentators so far, in my experience at FAC three reviews isn't enough to close the nomination. I completely understand if you're still too busy to comment though. In any case I won't bring it up again. Have a nice day. Damien Linnane (talk) 02:55, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Literacy rates and available programs

The numbers regarding the US (and possibly other countries) are conflating two things. The educational level rates among prisoners upon entry, and while in prison. The Urban Institute report (included in article) relies on the same statistics provided by Professor Harlow of the BJS in this report. In the Wiki article, it presents the educational levels of prisoners, including with prison education programs as opposed to the educational disparity of prisoners and general population upon entry. In that case, the state prisoner education level, is 32% have no high school or GED equivalent education as of 2003, with 26% of them obtaining a GED while in prison. ~ Shushugah (he/him • talk) 10:40, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

References

Shushugah (he/him • talk) 10:40, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

Hi Shushugah. Thanks for your comments. I do recall realising when writing that section that some statistics weren't differentiating between those entering the prison system, and the prison population in general (which would include those who had completed the courses while in prison). Sometimes the source itself doesn't clarify. What is apparent across the board, however, is that education levels in prison are consistently lower than outside all around the world, even when you do count the people who obtained their qualification in prison. That's the overall message I'm trying to convey in that section. I will keep this in mind though. I don't disagree that noting the difference between those entering prisons and the general prison population is interesting. Damien Linnane (talk) 14:06, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

Add Category:Education

I propose to add Category:Education for obvious reasons. As it is a featured article I do not dare to change it myself. Sda030 (talk) 22:18, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

Hi Sda030. Thanks for the suggestion; guess that obvious category just got overlooked. I've added it now though. Also while making bold changes to the prose of a featured article is arguably not a great idea, I wouldn't be worried about adding categories yourself in the future. Worst case scenario it just gets reverted. Have a nice day. Damien Linnane (talk) 02:01, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, will do! You too. Sda030 (talk) 17:14, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed and will soon be archived.

Tablets

Hello,

My edit on this page was reverted but contains important content that belongs to this article. Throughout the United States, tablet computers are used to provide education to inmates in several states. There was no link to the Tablet article I provided once it was removed. This is an important detail. The other detail which was removed, was a piece of legislature referenced concerning a minimum of education content provided to prisoners. NYC with 5 hours per day. I’d appreciate if someone put the information back, it was sourced Twillisjr (talk) 13:25, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

The reason for the reversion of your original addition to this page about one recent development in New York only to a section about centuries of history in the entire USA was clearly explained. You were not making a comment about tablets in general, only in one state. And most concerning, you sourced it to what appears to be a promotional website for Samsung. So no, we will not be adding that back. Please read WP:RS. And while we're at it please don't add bare urls to any Wikipedia article, let alone a featured one. Damien Linnane (talk) 01:18, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Global Poverty and Practice

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 17 January 2023 and 19 May 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Macybartlett (article contribs). Peer reviewers: Smg02.

— Assignment last updated by Smg02 (talk) 18:24, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Just for the record I've left some feedback on the student editor's page that I think they may find helpful regarding this assignment. Damien Linnane (talk) 02:40, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: College Composition II

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 16 January 2024 and 11 May 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Packka57 (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Lindseybean28 (talk) 21:23, 9 May 2024 (UTC)