Talk:Lucian

Lucian has been listed as one of the Language and literature good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

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Date	Process	Result
February 20, 2018	Good article nominee	Listed

A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on April 3, 2018.

The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that the Hellenized Syrian satirist Lucian wrote the novel A True Story, sometimes regarded as the first work of science fiction, in the second century AD?

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Untitled

i changed somethings becuase they were factuially wrong e.g Samosata was in turkey not syria and i changed some other things becuase they were copy and pasted from sites clearly indicating non-negotiable copyright clauses. (Anon. edit from [[User:159.92.101.19)

Samosata was not in "Turkey" in the 2nd century. Similarly, the following is a 20th century concern: His ethnicity is believed to have been Kurdish due to the fact that Commagene the kingdom in which his birthplace was located was a Kurdish state and due to his description of his Suran descent (Soran are one of the main dialectical groupings of the Kurds). Can we have the passage where Lucian speaks of his own ethnicity? it would make a goiod quote to introduce this above text. --Wetman 20:47, 31 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Turkey may not have existed in the 2nd cent AD but nor did the previously used, Syria. on the other point: Lucian, one of the star of classical Greek literature, a Kurd? Born an raised in Samsat, southeast of Adiyaman, Lucian in his writings takes pride in being able to speak and compose in various Greek dialects, so well, he reports, that in Antioch he passed as an Ionian; in Athens as an Antiochian. Lucian is amused that none suspected that Greek was not his native language, and that he was in fact a Soran Kurd. He learned Greek when hired as a boy to do household chores for a local Roman administrator in whose household Greek served as the lingua franca. Like a true Kurd, Lucian often writes of his preference for his mountainous homeland of Kurdistan over the bountiful plains of the others. from http://www.kurdistanica.com/english/history/articles-his/his-articles-06.html as modified by a thesis by Prof. Izady of Harvard university.

I have added the category Syrian people as he did refer to himself as Syrian.Yuber^(talk) 04:19, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I trust that few readers of this page are unaware of Syria as a province of the Roman Empire, as our anonymous contributor above appears to be. Such purely modern contentions over ethnicity generally reveal primitive misunderstandings about history and a desire to apply "spin". --Wetman 00:46, 24 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

---

I like to urge the editors on this article to look in Lucian book "Goddess of Syria", where he stated that he is an "Assourious", that translate to Assyrian not Syrian. I propose that I change "Syrian" to the proper "Assyrian" by 10/25/06 if no one else has any objections. --Esarhaddon 01:04, 19 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I found this right here in his own testimony; [[1]] I write as an Assyrian born Chaldean 04:20, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

On what grounds can Lucian possibly be considered "one of the first novelists in occidental civilization"? This seems to be an extremely loose conception of the novel. TickleText 22:51, 8 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Way to Write History

I notice that this article has nothing on Lucian's important work, The Way to Write History. I'm not very good at writing encyclopaedic articles so if someone else could add a description and brief analysis/evaluation of the work and its significance in understanding ancient historiography, I would appreciate it. Mr. Alcibiades 17:53, 21 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Works

From el-wiki:

Rhetorics

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Dialogues

1. Satirical dialogues:

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2. Philosophical dialogues:

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Ἑρμότιμος
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Satires of philosophers' biographies:

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4. Other "scoffy" dialogues (written during the last years of his life when he signed as Lycinus - Λυκῖνος):

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Epistles

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Novels

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Pseudo-Lucianus

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Methinks that his full ergography should be included in the article. Omnipedian (talk) 07:17, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We already have this at List of works by Lucian (linked in this article). --Folantin (talk) 08:04, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

To be honest, I kinda missed that. However, I think that the catalogue above is still useful as an alternative paradigm of how his ergography can be represented (alternative to the mainstream Oxford Classical Texts (OCT) one, I mean). OCT-order may be better from a scholarly point of view, but it is a bit inaccesible (whatever that means) for someone not familiar with this style of non-genre based catalogography (just making an observation, not a serious point!). --Omnipedian (talk) 06:33, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This would be unnecessary duplication since we already have an entire page dedicated to his works (which took me quite a long time to set up). Also, ordering his works by genre is going to be controversial. As Sidwell writes, "Outside of the small number of works which fall into established rhetorical genres [...] it is extremely difficult to categorize Lucian's writings effectively according to form or theme." --Folantin (talk) 07:43, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Greek name

His Greek name, Λουκιανός, isn't that simply the Latin name spelled with Greek letters? Would that have been his original Greek name? __meco (talk) 09:53, 20 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Some Greeks adopted Roman names. The writer of the Gospel of Mark had a Roman name. AnonMoos (talk) 11:29, 20 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Assyrian

I have reverted this edit that changed his ethnicity to Assyrian based on an article from an Assyrian Newsnetwork ([http://www.aina.org/articles/assyrianidentity.pdf link). While the scholarship presented in that article may be sound (I am not qualified to judge), it is also stated that the view that he self-represents as Assyrian is against common academic consensus (p. 17: "This self-identification is commonly misinterpreted to imply nothing more than that these writers were ethnic Syrians (in the modern sense) speaking Aramaic as their mother tongue (Millar 1993, 460)". So until this view becomes common academic consensus, it should be presented as a minority view, that is explicitly stating that it is the view of Simo Parpola, not presented as generally accepted fact. --Saddhiyama (talk) 12:24, 24 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. --Folantin (talk) 16:14, 24 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Lucian himself said "I that write [this] am "Assourious" [Assyrian]". See Lucian, Translated by A.M. Harmon, Vol. IV, "The goddess of Surrye", London 1925 p.339. So it's not just Parpola who is stating that, Lucian himself explicitly wrote it and his own words should not just be ignored. And your source is from 1971, i.e. 40 years old compared to Parpola's article that was published 2004. Kaldaya (talk) 09:48, 25 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

All I am saying is that the discussion regarding "Syrian" and "Assyrian" is still ongoing, and this should be reflected in the lede. You could perhaps change the wording to express this. "His ehtnicity is disputed and is attributed as Assyrian according to ... and Syrian according to ..." or something like that. It seems this 1992 article by a Richard N. Frye is the disputed item. --Saddhiyama (talk) 10:08, 25 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Simon Swain spends about ten pages discussing the issue in Hellenism and Empire: Language, Classicism and Power in the Greek World AD 50-250 (page 298ff.). As far as I can tell from a quick reading, he doesn't come to any definite conclusions, but says Lucian was probably Semitic and may have spoken Aramaic. In Lucian, the terms "Syrian" and "Assyrian" appear to be interchangeable (see p.299 and, esp. footnote). --Folantin (talk) 11:18, 25 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, since it's disputed, let's make a compromise. Kaldaya (talk) 12:09, 26 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Looks fine (though my example was just a rough outline and could possibly need some smoothing in the wording). Also, I wouldn't mind a separate paragraph in the article (not in the lede), going into more detail about both sides of the argument regarding the interpretation of the word. Especially since the lede would possibly make readers wonder what the dispute is all about. --Saddhiyama (talk) 12:59, 26 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Syrian and Assyrian refer to the same ethnic group historically speaking. One shouldn't confuse them with the modern Syrian Arab Republic. I will keep "Syrian" as ethnicity but will redirect it to Assyrian people.--Rafy talk 01:32, 26 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The first sentence of the article currently reads "Lucian of Samosata (c. 125 – after 180) was an Assyrian[1] satirist..." but the source cited makes no such claim. The sole reference to Lucian in that source describes Lucian as "a Greek writer". There is no mention of the word "Assyrian" or "Syrian" in the book. --Dherbelot (talk) 15:56, 3 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified

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GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Lucian/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Iazyges (talk · contribs) 00:36, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Will start soon. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 00:36, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Criteria

GA Criteria

GA Criteria:

1
1.a Y

1.b Y
2
2.a Y

2.b Y

2.c Y

2.d Y (35.5% is highest, however it is only due to both site and article containing a quoted paragraph from Lucian.)
3
3.a Y

3.b Y
4
4.a Y
5
5.a Y
6
6.a Y

6.b Y

No DAB links Y
No Dead links Y
Images appropriately licensed Y

Prose Suggestions

Lede

frequently poked fun at superstition, religious practices, and belief in the paranormal. suggest frequently ridiculed superstition, religious practices, and belief in the paranormal..
sculptor, but, after a failed attempt at sculpting, he ran away to pursue an education in Ionia. suggest sculptor, but after a failed attempt at sculpting, ran away to pursue an education in Ionia..

Life

most people in the Hellenistic world were joining Mystery Cults, suggest most people in the Hellenistic world joined Mystery Cults,
After this point, he disappears from the historical record entirely.[14] Nothing is known about his death. suggest After this point, he disappears from the historical record entirely, and nothing is known about his death..

Legacy

Lucian's writings were forgotten during the Middle Ages, suggest Lucian's writings were lost during the Middle Ages,
@Katolophyromai: That is all of my comments, passing now. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 15:10, 20 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

For the sake of sanity

I have adressed the formulaic "aging" in the article, namely by replacing it with "middle-aged". @User:Katolophyromai have then reverted my edit with the argument:

He would have been between his late fifties to late sixties. Unless you know many people in their 110s and 120s, that is not "middle-aged."

Matemathically I agree, but even in my natural language, which is Danish, the term 'middle-aged' (or "midaldrende") do refer to men and women in their fifties. Maybe because it is such a nice round number. I think you will find most people agree with this, and that it is the proper phrase to use in this context. Sechinsic (talk) 11:21, 6 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Sechinsic: The source supporting the statement about Lucian being appointed to a government position in Egypt in his old age is page xiv of the introduction to Lionel Casson's Selected Satires of Lucian, in which Casson provides a brief biography of Lucian. Casson's exact words are: "When he was quite an old man, Emperor Commodus (180-192) appointed him to a lucrative government job in Egypt. This is the last we hear of him." The source explicitly states that Lucian was "quite an old man," so we should follow the source, unless you have another reliable source explicitly stating that Lucian was "middle-aged" at the time.

It is worth noting that, on page xiii of the same introduction, Casson estimates Lucian's approximate birth date as "around 120 AD," which is five years earlier than our estimated birth date given in the infobox at the beginning of the article. (Obviously, as with virtually everyone else in the ancient world, we do not really know exactly when Lucian was born, so all dates are approximate.) Casson's estimated birth date would make Lucian around sixty at the time of Marcus Aurelius's death in 180 AD and Commodus's ascension to the status of full emperor. If we assume Lucian was appointed to the position in the later years of Commodus's reign, that could make him potentially as old as seventy-two, since Commodus died in 192 AD. No matter how you break it up, seventy-two is definitely not "middle-aged," especially for a person living in the second century AD. --Katolophyromai (talk) 20:34, 6 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate your detail, and I cannot refer to any sources about Lucian, and so the matter is decided. I am not very convinced, though. You mention the relativeness involved, and bring no convincing arguments to better the concrete historical evaluation, here. The case for using "middle-aged" is not good, at all, but on the other hand, I feel that "aging" is not much better, because this term imply what may not be known. Relatively speaking I guess Lucian could have been a very lively 59 year-old government official and fictional writer, or for that matter a very lively 74 year-old government official and fictional writer! Again, thank you for your detail. Sechinsic (talk) 16:26, 7 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"ancient Greek-speaking" added to first sentence

@Azerty82: I do not necessarily object to this change, but I will point out that the article clearly says that Lucian wrote exclusively in Ancient Greek in the very next sentence, which is the second sentence of the article. It therefore seems rather unnecessary and redundant to describe Lucian as "ancient Greek-speaking" in the first sentence when the second sentence already goes into greater detail explaining that he was a native speaker of Syriac but wrote exclusively in Ancient Greek. —Katolophyromai (talk) 01:10, 11 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

You're right, I should have read better again. Actually I started to modify the intro while working on a list of ancient Greek writers, because I noticed the article on Lucian/Lukianos doesn't fit in the common style for writers on WP, i.e. "Franz Kafka (3 July 1883 – 3 June 1924) was a German-speaking Bohemian novelist [...]" / Fyodor Mikhailovich Dostoevsky (/ˌdɒstəˈjɛfski, ˌdʌs-/; Russian: Фёдор Михайлович Достоевский, tr. Fyódor Mikháylovich Dostoyévskiy; 11 November 1821 – 9 February 1881), sometimes transliterated Dostoyevsky, was a Russian novelist [...] / "Sappho (/ˈsæfoʊ/; Aeolic Greek Ψάπφω Psáppho; c. 630 – c. 570 BC) was an Archaic Greek poet from the island of Lesbos [...]". That said, it's not really a big deal, just an unusual style to me when I was switching from one article to another. Azerty82 (talk) 12:00, 11 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It is perfectly fine. Honestly, I probably would not have said anything if it were not for the fact that the subject of Lucian's national identity has attracted a great deal of controversy here in the past. I was somewhat concerned that mentioning the fact that he wrote in Greek multiple times in the first paragraph might come across to some people as a nationalistic attempt to assert a Greek identity for him, which I was concerned might lead to yet another controversy. I am glad we were able to resolve this issue without conflict. :) —Katolophyromai (talk) 18:13, 11 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The Jesus reference

@Yabroq: @Teishin: I have revised the part about Lucian mentioning Jesus in his On the Passing of Peregrinus to read as follows:

"The speaker in the letter also refers to an individual whom he calls 'Christ', whom he characterizes as the founder of Christianity. The speaker claims that this 'Christ' lived in Palestine just over a century prior, that he taught that his followers would attain immortality, and that he was crucified."

Someone would have to be really creative to come up with an excuse for how this description could refer to anyone other than Jesus. Nonetheless, Yabroq has a fair point that Lucian doesn't actually use the name "Jesus," so, for the sake of this article, I have decided it the best compromise to simply state what Lucian himself says. My guess is that any educated reader will be able to easily tell who Lucian is talking about. —Katolophyromai (talk) 06:13, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]