Talk:Gilbert and Sullivan

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Gilbert and Sullivan has been listed as one of the Media and drama good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
June 7, 2007	Good article nominee	Listed
June 28, 2007	Featured article candidate	Not promoted
May 9, 2009	Good article reassessment	Kept

Current status: Good article

A note on terminology
Gilbert, Sullivan, Carte and other Victorian era British composers and librettists, as well as the contemporary British press and literature, called works of the sort that Gilbert and Sullivan produced "comic operas" to distinguish them from the continental European operettas that they wished to displace. Most of the specialist literature on Gilbert and Sullivan since that time has referred to these works as "operas" (e.g., Jacobs, Preface), though some later general books on music prefer "operetta". For a discussion of this, see Kuykendall, James Brooks. "Recitative in the Savoy Operas", The Musical Quarterly, Vol. 95, Issue 4, pp. 549–612. The Gilbert and Sullivan WikiProject has used the term "opera" consistently throughout the G&S-related articles within its scope.

Image upgrades

Think you're right to keep from overstuffing the article. I'd say there's room to re-evaluate, but I'd start with the images I'd consider replacing, which are:

File:Sorc-Pin-Trial.jpg - A pretty bad reproduction, even at thumbnail. Think we mainly use this since it's both Sorcerer and Pinafore (we have a seperate Trial image.) I'd be inclined to go Pinafore over Sorcerer for a replacement: After all, one of the two is performed constantly, and it's not Sorcerer.
File:George Grossmith as Bunthorne, 1881 (second version).jpg - Mind, I plan to replace this with a better copy of the same image, which probably is about as uncontroversial as you get.
File:Barnett as Fairy Queen.jpg - Probably have better images in Iolanthe. It's a little stiff and staged of a photo.
File:Denny and Bond.jpg Low-quality reproduction; I'll see if I can get a better copy. This one could maybe be replaced: On the one hand, it is iconic; on the other, they are the secondary characters, so maybe we should use a different Yeomen (or Ruddigore) image.

Maybes:

File:Marco and Giuseppe.jpg Little torn on this one. It's a classic photo, but it's not a great reproduction, and we maybe lean a little hard into staged photos for this article. Maybe if there's something obviously better, but inclined to leave it until then.
File:Pirate King1.jpg I mean, it's fine. I wish it wasn't cut off on the left.

Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 8.5% of all FPs.} 18:00, 17 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, User:Adam Cuerden! Some of the photos a new editor recommended are drawings of a scene, as in Pinafore and Pirates, which I agree is probably better than just a drawing of one character, like the Pirate King.

Would you please go ahead and delete the Sorc-Pin-Trial one, as well as the Pirate King one, and replace them with the colorful Pinafore one and the Pirates scene drawing (but try to keep the captions as concise and relevant to the G&S article as possible)?
As for Patience, they suggested the 1885 programme illustration instead of the Bunthorne. This also strikes me as good (unless you have an objection to it). I see you have already put your new Grossmith in the Grossmith and Patience articles.
Similarly, the Iolanthe one is OK instead of Barnett (if you agree), but the Princess Ida one should then go on the left, rather than the right side.
their Ruddigore suggestion is also OK, but I would move it left. Do you agree?
I like the current Denny/Bond photo. If you can get a better quality reproduction, even better (and it should also go in the Yeomen article. I would not use the NY one suggested by the new editor.
I am also torn on The Gondoliers, since the image we have is from the original production, while the one that the new editor suggested is from a touring production. Your choice.
I would NOT add the Grand Duke poster suggestion, as that part of the article is 'way too overcrowded already.

Please go ahead with those items that you agree with. Thanks! -- Ssilvers (talk) 01:03, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm just going to number these for clarity:

Will do the left-right-left-right shortly
Sorc-Pin-Trial, Pinafore and Pirates: I think we can do better with Pinafore, but I'll put it in for now. We don't need a Sorcerer, right? Replaced. I think we c
Patience: That's obviously not the full image - Dream of Patie? It's by Alice Havers, it's the [https://standennt.wordpress.com/2015/12/17/object-of-the-month-a-dream-of-patience/ design for a Christmas card, but I think the biggest problem is it's a little too loose of an interpretation - naked cherubs and such - to really work as a sample of the play.
Iolanthe: It's a featured picture, so sure.
Ruddigore: The suggestion is kind of blurry, and we have two featured pictures of Ruddigore, File:H. M. Brock - Gilbert and Sullivan - D'Oyly Carte Opera Company Ruddigore revival 1921.jpg and File:H. M. Brock - Gilbert and Sullivan - D'Oyly Carte Opera Company Ruddigore revival 1921.jpg. Do you prefer one of those?

Gondoliers: Let's keep it as-is for now.
Grand Duke: Could lose File:Glad to See You Together.png, but it's one of the more boring posters, so let's leave it out.

Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 8.5% of all FPs.} 02:58, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't agree about the "Glad to see you together" drawing, as I think it expresses a key point about the public's perception of the evolution of the G&S partnership. Glad to hear others' opinions? -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:00, 19 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I generally like it more than the Grand Duke poster, but I was willing to compromise. Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 8.5% of all FPs.} 17:08, 19 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, sorry, I misinterpreted what you meant. I see now that when you said "it", you meant the GD poster. Thanks! -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:13, 19 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, I see! Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 8.5% of all FPs.} 03:25, 21 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I have the following alternatives:

Patience: The Quadrille cover is nice [1]

Hmmm. This would be better in the Patience article than here, I think. -- Ssilvers (talk) 16:31, 19 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I also like this picture of Giuseppe and Tessa: https://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O1333385/the-gondoliers-costume-design-unknown/

It's pretty, but I think a little too obscure. Maybe good for the Gondoliers article. -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:01, 19 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 8.5% of all FPs.} 03:24, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A thought: We have eight Princess Ida illustrations by W. Russell Flint: William Russell Flint#Illustrations to Savoy Operas. Would using a non-wide image like File:William Russell Flint - W. S. Gilbert - Savoy Operas - Princess Ida 8.jpg, File:William Russell Flint - W. S. Gilbert - Savoy Operas - Princess Ida 1.jpg, or File:William Russell Flint - W. S. Gilbert - Savoy Operas - Princess Ida 5 (Frontispiece).jpg make the layout better? Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 8.5% of all FPs.} 03:29, 21 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No, the problem is that we do not have enough vertical space there. A wide one is good, but it would be better to have one with larger figures that would show well at a smallish size. Of the Flint images, I think the one we are using is probably the best one here, as it can be used at the left. -- Ssilvers (talk) 04:01, 21 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hm. Maybe File:Princess-Ida-1884.jpg Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 8.5% of all FPs.} 06:22, 21 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, better for that location. Done. -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:23, 21 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]